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  • #1270528
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    Izbeckistan
    Participant

    @lshak 538709 wrote:

    Just think of it from a religious point of you and a different perspective, if you had put everyone on earth as a test to see if we can be trusted with knowledge that we gained from the forbidden fruit, would you appreciate your creation knowing the truth, seeing it all around them and then completely ignoring and shunning him out?

    This is the single reason that if there is a ‘heaven’ I don’t want to be there. You say your god is all powerful and all knowing, then why do so many children suffer? Why does he let them suffer? That’s fine if he wants to test and punish adults but what about the young and the innocent?
    It sounds to me as though your God is immoral. Therefor ‘heaven’ is an immoral place full of immoral people.
    But the religious book itself is in my opinion disgusting. (for simular reason poly pointed out…Muhammed as/is not a good person.

    I don’t hate the Islamic people because I know why they are so pious and follow the religion…I can see the need for faith. I just wish they would look elsewhere and not this horrendous and backwards religion πŸ™

    #1270729
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    Deez
    Participant

    @izbeckistan 538714 wrote:

    This is the single reason that if there is a ‘heaven’ I don’t want to be there. You say your god is all powerful and all knowing, then why do so many children suffer? Why does he let them suffer? That’s fine if he wants to test and punish adults but what about the young and the innocent?
    It sounds to me as though your God is immoral. Therefor ‘heaven’ is an immoral place full of immoral people.
    But the religious book itself is in my opinion disgusting. (for simular reason poly pointed out…Muhammed as/is not a good person.

    I don’t hate the Islamic people because I know why they are so pious and follow the religion…I can see the need for faith. I just wish they would look elsewhere and not this horrendous and backwards religion πŸ™

    I agree with you but the vast majority of religions are horrendous and backwards as they were created thousands of years ago on now outdated principles and ways of life. I can’t agree with ideologies that aren’t for equality, even if it means that as a middle class white male I have an epic time, as I wouldn’t want to be in one of the sections of society that basically have a shit life due to others, it ain’t right.

    #1270529
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    Izbeckistan
    Participant

    @DeezNuts 538716 wrote:

    I agree with you but the vast majority of religions are horrendous and backwards as they were created thousands of years ago on now outdated principles and ways of life. I can’t agree with ideologies that aren’t for equality, even if it means that as a middle class white male I have an epic time, as I wouldn’t want to be in one of the sections of society that basically have a shit life due to others, it ain’t right.

    Even at the time they where written, whos to say that way of life benefited people back then ?
    I don’t think these religions benefit societies in any time or place. Especially the sexual repression aspects of it (which is horrendous for both sexes, we all deserve sexual liberation)

    #1270590
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    The Psyentist
    Participant

    Why assume that God is a positive being? Bad/evil people can also become great achievers, its just a matter of perspective. If he does exist maybe we were put here without purpose other than reap havoc on each other and to entertain him as he watches the chaos unfold.

    #1270667
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    joksgez
    Participant

    hey Lshak. its interesting that you have gone from being a total non believer to this full on religious guy in an instant. was there some sort of specific moment were it all completely changed because you have changed your entire beliefs so rapidly i find it strange

    #1270530
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    Izbeckistan
    Participant

    @The Psyentist 538734 wrote:

    Why assume that God is a positive being? Bad/evil people can also become great achievers, its just a matter of perspective. If he does exist maybe we were put here without purpose other than reap havoc on each other and to entertain him as he watches the chaos unfold.

    Well yeah, he certainly doesn’t fall into the definition of benevolent.
    Maybe we are all a computer game that god is playing with muhammed and jesus.
    Everytime you die you go to a check point which is what happens when you get ‘deja vu’

    #1270333
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    know_hope
    Participant

    @joksgez 538735 wrote:

    hey Lshak. its interesting that you have gone from being a total non believer to this full on religious guy in an instant. was there some sort of specific moment were it all completely changed because you have changed your entire beliefs so rapidly i find it strange

    this seems quite common in the more devout/extreme sections. i was in israel quite a lot and my gf lost a few friends in this way. here today gone tomorrow. two of her friends were a really nice hippie-ish couple that would come round and play flute, guitar and sing, smoke some weed etc. they were ppl that were really interested in others. they had a big religious wedding and after that it was completely different. they were still nice but it was like they’d become robots, the wife with a wig. i remember they came round to my gf’s and the previous time it was friendly big hugs goodbye, this time i hugged the wife and she was fine with it but she’s not supposed have this contact with another guy… i think these religions are very absorbing for those that it may appeal to. its not so much like here, loosely going to church hungover on a sunday morning

    #1270668
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    joksgez
    Participant

    i just find it bizarre how people can change so much so quickly. one of my dads friends has had this happen to him, he disappeared for 4 years and now has come back claiming hes had a life changing experience and has been living a righteous life. claiming god works in amazing ways and preaching that if you dont live a righteous life you will suffer eternal pain. the guy is an absolute freak he looks like he has been lobotomized and was talking all kinds of weird things saying he is one of god’s two chosen people

    my dad is a psychiatric nurse and has told him that he is psychotic and hes getting help for it. this guy used to do microdots all the time apparently and was always a bit weird. scary stuff to see

    #1270455
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    Pat McDonald
    Participant

    Unbalanced societies create unbalanced people.

    It’s all very well blaming the individual, but what sane person can watch a TV News bulletin and cheer at every item?

    Moral: Don’t watch news bulletins. You can bet your last penny they won’t show you anything useful or applicable to you.

    Control the information, you control how people think. Now THAT’S what I call evil.

    #1270487
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    Chrispydelic
    Participant

    @lshak 538709 wrote:

    1. “He is the most merciful, most pure and most powerful being in the universe”

    2. “if you had put everyone on earth as a test to see if we can be trusted with knowledge that we gained from the forbidden fruit, would you appreciate your creation knowing the truth, seeing it all around them and then completely ignoring and shunning him out?”

    Point 1. We have already established that he damns people to hell, who may have lived really just and selfless lives just because due to circumstance, they believe in the wrong thing (does that sound merciful to you?)

    Point 2. So do you believe in the whole original sin and garden of Eden thing? Because it is not physically possible for the human race to have evolved the way it has from only one man and one woman. We would all be hideously deformed if we were still around at all. Plus it has been proven that Homo Sapiens originated in Africa somewhere around 20,000 years ago.

    #1270456
    Avatar
    Pat McDonald
    Participant

    @chrispydelic 538752 wrote:

    Point 1. We have already established that he damns people to hell, who may have lived really just and selfless lives just because due to circumstance, they believe in the wrong thing (does that sound merciful to you?)[/quote]

    Complete nonsense from an Islamic perspective. People are condemned not for their beliefs but for their actions. So stuff that idea back up your arse, Chrispy.

    @chrispydelic 538752 wrote:

    Point 2. So do you believe in the whole original sin and garden of Eden thing? Because it is not physically possible for the human race to have evolved the way it has from only one man and one woman. We would all be hideously deformed if we were still around at all. Plus it has been proven that Homo Sapiens originated in Africa somewhere around 20,000 years ago.

    While I agree with you on the points of evolution being the best fit with the evidence, actual “proof” is somewhat more tenuous than you suggest.

    Also, some scientists are concluding from the DNA record that there is a common male ancestor to all humans. It’s more to do with an early mass extinction than one man shagging every woman he came across, but nontheless, “Adam” might actually be a real concept.

    Have a nice day. πŸ™‚

    #1270488
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    Chrispydelic
    Participant

    @Pat McDonald 538756 wrote:

    Complete nonsense from an Islamic perspective.

    “Adam” might actually be a real concept.

    Have a nice day. πŸ™‚

    1. I was lead to believe that non believers will burn. I do not claim to know a great deal about Islam all I know is there are parts of it that I find sinister but once again, each to his own. I’m entitled to my beliefs just the same as others are entitled to theirs (regardless of how bizarre I find them to be).

    2. And Adam was kicked out of Africa by God because he spoke to a magic snake that made him eat an apple? I suppose a senior citizen built a gargantuan craft capable of transporting two of every animal, himself, out of wood? (How he managed to obtain two of every animal is another thing as some are very geographically specific so I’m guessing he also had a hand made teleporter that allowed him to zap kangaroos and polar bears onto his ark).

    The STORIES and parables in the bible and other holy books are METAPHORS and were designed to be relevant in the time that they were written in order to pass on messages and ideals designed to instill morality to illiterate people with no knowledge of science in a way that would be meaningful to them.

    #1270457
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    Pat McDonald
    Participant

    The Islamic concept in short form;-

    1) One angel to your right notes all your good deeds.

    2) Another angel to your left notes all your bad deeds.

    3) After death, one good deed erases one bad deed.

    4) Those with any bad deeds still noted burn.

    As for the rest of your posts, I really have better things to do than be conjectural about scientific potshards of data that do not add up. Their isn’t even a hypothesis about how humans (homo sapiens) actually spread/travelled/migrated. So any further discussion on that really is just arguing the toss.

    #1270489
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    Chrispydelic
    Participant

    @Pat McDonald 538769 wrote:

    The Islamic concept in short form;-

    1) One angel to your right notes all your good deeds.

    2) Another angel to your left notes all your bad deeds.

    3) After death, one good deed erases one bad deed.

    4) Those with any bad deeds still noted burn.

    So any further discussion on that really is just arguing the toss.

    Sounds good to me, so I don’t have to fast or grow a beard and I can still get drunk and eat bacon and in all likelyhood I won’t burn! Yay! (Although this is contradictory to what a very devout muslim friend and colleague has been telling me).

    And besides, I though you liked arguing the toss as much as I do Pat. C’mon, you know you love it. πŸ™‚ It’s not so much arguing, it’s heated debate! πŸ˜‰

    #1270505
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    Mezz
    Participant

    Seems to me only thing religion is good for is starting arguments

    #1270549
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    MC G-Tek
    Participant

    @Pat McDonald 538756 wrote:

    Also, some scientists are concluding from the DNA record that there is a common male ancestor to all humans. It’s more to do with an early mass extinction than one man shagging every woman he came across, but nontheless, “Adam” might actually be a real concept.

    Have a nice day. πŸ™‚

    More than that man, there is believed to be both a ‘Scientific Adam’ and a ‘Scientific Eve’ as well.

    #1270550
    Avatar
    MC G-Tek
    Participant

    @mezz 538772 wrote:

    Seems to me only thing religion is good for is starting arguments

    Agreed mate, even on this thread, people who normally get along really well are disagreeing with one another quite vociferously.

    Anyway, here’s what Aussie comedian Jim Jefferies has to say about religion, I think it sums it up nicely…

    [ATTACH=CONFIG]84211[/ATTACH]

    #1270490
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    Chrispydelic
    Participant

    @mezz 538772 wrote:

    Seems to me only thing religion is good for is starting arguments

    It’s been pretty good for hijacking this thread! lol

    Anyway it’s not arguments, it’s debate! Religion, politics and philosophy are the best topics for this as everyone has a slightly different opinion or interpretation.

    #1270531
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    Izbeckistan
    Participant

    @chrispydelic 538776 wrote:

    It’s been pretty good for hijacking this thread! lol

    Anyway it’s not arguments, it’s debate! Religion, politics and philosophy are the best topics for this as everyone has a slightly different opinion or interpretation.

    Yeah it turns into an argument when people get all personal, which most of us have refrained from (even Lshak which is pretty admirable) I’d call this here a debate πŸ™‚

    #1270385
    Avatar
    Lshak
    Participant

    @joksgez 538735 wrote:

    hey Lshak. its interesting that you have gone from being a total non believer to this full on religious guy in an instant. was there some sort of specific moment were it all completely changed because you have changed your entire beliefs so rapidly i find it strange

    Well it was gradual, but then it came down harder and so much more intensely than anything I’ve experienced. And I wouldn’t say I’m some “full on religious guy”, I am a guy who has found bliss in religion (islam) and am just exploring it, and have a very strong belief in it. I have had a personal spiritual/religious awakening, unless you were in my position and experienced what I did, you can’t judge me and my beliefs, and if you did, I couldn’t care less to be honest lol

    Regarding hell, I don’t know, all I know for sure is what pat stated about the Angels on your shoulders, and a few other things about death, apparently you will know exactly where you are going when you die, you will either be greeted by angel Gabriel and other angels pleasantly, or the angel of death with many angels behind him that won’t look so friendly, there will also be a bridge, if you have been a good person in your life (it is the final test) you will take one step and be on the other side In heaven instantly, or you will fall, or even have to crawl across it, depending on your deeds.

    I don’t know exactly what happens this is information I have been given from religious people in the mosque such as imams, possibly you won’t go to hell for your beliefs, like I said good is bliss and perfect and very merciful, we were put here to make mistakes and learn from them. At the end of the day, god judges you and you alone, on the day of resurrection you will stand alone in front of god and have to talk to him.

    I will provide scientific evidence of religion, particularly islam (although all religions have scientific proof) right after dinner.

    #1270669
    Avatar
    joksgez
    Participant

    @lshak 538789 wrote:

    Well it was gradual, but then it came down harder and so much more intensely than anything I’ve experienced. And I wouldn’t say I’m some “full on religious guy”, I am a guy who has found bliss in religion (islam) and am just exploring it, and have a very strong belief in it. I have had a personal spiritual/religious awakening, unless you were in my position and experienced what I did, you can’t judge me and my beliefs, and if you did, I couldn’t care less to be honest lol

    Regarding hell, I don’t know, all I know for sure is what pat stated about the Angels on your shoulders, and a few other things about death, apparently you will know exactly where you are going when you die, you will either be greeted by angel Gabriel and other angels pleasantly, or the angel of death with many angels behind him that won’t look so friendly, there will also be a bridge, if you have been a good person in your life (it is the final test) you will take one step and be on the other side In heaven instantly, or you will fall, or even have to crawl across it, depending on your deeds.

    I don’t know exactly what happens this is information I have been given from religious people in the mosque such as imams, possibly you won’t go to hell for your beliefs, like I said good is bliss and perfect and very merciful, we were put here to make mistakes and learn from them. At the end of the day, god judges you and you alone, on the day of resurrection you will stand alone in front of god and have to talk to him.

    I will provide scientific evidence of religion, particularly islam (although all religions have scientific proof) right after dinner.

    nah im not judging i just found it interesting; you’re completely entitled to your own opinions. i studied miracles and conversion and religion in college and it was all very interesting

    #1270386
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    Lshak
    Participant

    @joksgez 538797 wrote:

    nah im not judging i just found it interesting; you’re completely entitled to your own opinions. i studied miracles and conversion and religion in college and it was all very interesting

    Good man, another intellectual person I’ve found that has an open mind and curiousity for others and understanding that everyone is different πŸ™‚ 5 months ago, I would’ve called bullshit on every miracle, including my girlfriends, funny how the tables have turned for me now haha

    #1270591
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    The Psyentist
    Participant

    @lshak 538803 wrote:

    Good man, another intellectual person I’ve found that has an open mind and curiousity for others and understanding that everyone is different πŸ™‚ 5 months ago, I would’ve called bullshit on every miracle, including my girlfriends, funny how the tables have turned for me now haha

    It isn’t we’re not open minded it is simply that we are probably a little more empirical than you and since we’ve been granted no evidence to change our minds we follow the scientific facts we do know.

    For example I don’t believe in ghosts either but that is only because I’ve never had experience of the supernatural to make me think otherwise. Should I see a ghost or be visited by an angel then yeah I’ll believe.

    #1270387
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    Lshak
    Participant

    So i will start by saying, these are more from intellectual and factual knowledge, very interesting points here, make of it as you will. Just think how would someone 1400 years ago know all of this? And claimed author of none of it

    Ok, the science behind islam:

    Quran on the origin of the universe:

    Science concludes that at one point in time the whole universe was nothing but a cloud of ‘smoke’, this is one of the undisputed principles of standard modern cosmology.
    The Quran states (41:11): god said – “then he directed himself to the heaven while it was smoke…”

    Because the earth and heavens above the sun, moon, galaxies, etc… Have been formed from this same ‘smoke’, we conclude that the earth and the heavens were one connected entity. Then out of this homogenous ‘smoke’, they formed and separated each other.
    God stated: (21:30): “have those who disbelieved not considered that the heavens and the earth were a joined entity, ad we separated them and made from water every living thing? Then will they not believe?”

    The prophet did not claim to be the author of the Quran, and the knowledge of that time did not suffice for he assertion the universe had once been a gaseous state.
    God says- (Quran 11:49): ” that is from the news of the unseen which we reveal to you, O Muhammad. You knew it not, neither you nor your people, before this. So be patient, indeed, the bet outcome is for the righteous.”

    …..

    Quran (51:47): “and the heaven we constructed with strength aNd indeed we are its expander.”
    A verse on the constant expanding of the universe. This discovery is amongst one of the greatest in the history of astronomy. The stars and galaxies not only move away from us, but each ther.

    Quran (21:33): “and it is he who created the night and the day and the sun and the moons; all heavenly bodies in an orbit are swimming”
    Quran (36:40): “it is not allowable for the sun to reach the moon, nor does the night overtake the day, but each, in an orbit is swimming”
    This concept of the movement of the sun and the moon and the other planets is in perfect harmony with recent discoveries. IT IS INCONCIEVABLE THAT AN ARAB, LIVING CENTURIES AGO IN THE MOST PRIMITAVE PART OF THE WORLD, COULD HAVE RIGHTLY USED SUCH A SPECIFIC TERM TO DESCRIBE THE MOVEMENTS OF THE PLANETS WITHOUT DEVINE GUIDANCE. The discovery of this orbital movement was due to the invention of the telescope.

    Quran (36:36): “exalted is he who created all in pairs – from what the earth gross and from themselves and from which they do not know”.
    The Quran outlines the fact that all creatures, living or solid materials are created in pairs.
    DNA IS MADE UP OF BASE PAIRS AND THOUSANDS OF DIFFERENT GENES, THERE IS A LOT MORE ON PAIRS BUT IM NOT GOING TO WRITE IT OUT.

    ….

    Quran (21:30): “have those who disbelieved not considered that the heavens and the earth were a joined entity, and we separated them and made from water every living thing? Then will they not believe?”
    A point to make here is animals in dry regions have been created with mechanisms to protect their metabolisms from water loss and to ensure maximum benefit from water use. If water loss takes place in the body for any reason, and if that loss is not made good, death will result in few days.

    ….

    Quran (55:19-20) : “he releasd the two seas, meeting side by side; between them is a barrier so neither of them transgress.”
    It mentions a forbidden partition with a barrier between fresh and salt water in the Red Sea.

    Quran (25:53): “and it is he who has released the two seas, one fresh and sweet and the other salty and bitter, and he placed between them a barrier and prohibiting partition.”
    MODERN SCIENCE HAS DISCOVERED THE SITUATION IS DIFFEEENT FROM WHAT IS FOUND IN PLACES WHERE TWO SEAS MEET.

    Quran (57:25): “and we sent down iron, wherein is great military might and benefits for the people and so that god may evident those who support him and his messengers unseen. Indeed, god is powerful ad exalted in might.”
    SCIENCE SAYS – OF ALL THE METALS THERE IS NONE MORE ESSENTIAL TO LIFE THAN IRON. AND IT IS ITON THAT CAUSES A SUPERNOVA EXPLOSION IN THE CENTRE OF A STAR, MAGNETIC FIELD, AND MANY MANY MORE.

    —-////////—-

    I will leave it there with a few more topics for you to research if you choose too:
    – THE QURAN ON MOUNTAINS
    – THE QURAN ON HUMAN EMBYRONIC DEVELOPMENT (very very detailed and no coincidence they knew this 1400 years ago.)
    – COMMUNICATION OF THE ANTS (spoken about in the Quran, and recently scientists discovered this miracle.)

    #1270491
    Avatar
    Chrispydelic
    Participant

    Yes I have read these passages before. They are unconvincing at best. Believers are simply reading into it what they want. They are as subjective as what Mystic Meg would come up with on her weekly horoscope as you can interpret them to suit your beliefs.

    The term ‘smoke’ is very subjective and is not really how matter was constructed anyway. Ok, gasses were the first molecules on the periodic table to be created after the big bang and then by fusion they bonded and formed heavier and heavier molecules but it doesn’t really say that does it?

    “And the heaven we constructed with strength and indeed we are it’s expander”. Really? That could be interpreted in so many ways. Just because it mentions the universe (in a somewhat vague manor) and expansion doesn’t really explain inflation theory and that fact that the bodies in the universe are moving apart now does it?

    The pairs thing could easily be interpreted as being of male and female also (and this would seem more likely 1500 years ago) but we know that this is not always the case as some plants and animals are A-sexual.

    I’m not going to go into the rest of these as I think that people will begin to see my point now. I have a copy of the pamphlet that you are quoting from (which was given to me by a Muslim friend who claimed it was proof that Islam knew about things that we only know now in science) and it didn’t convince me at all I’m afraid. My subscription to New Scientist Magazine is far more enlightening thankyou.

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