Forums The Vibe Chat Rant Thread!

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  • #1130570
    AvatarTank Girl
    Participant

    And my rant today is I am so over and fed up with pain related to my bloody periods (no pun intended ;P)

    #1165609
    AvatarTank Girl
    Participant

    And my rant today is I am so over and fed up with pain related to my bloody periods (no pun intended ;P)

    #1129324
    AvatarGeneral Lighting
    Moderator

    @p0ly 454621 wrote:

    so what you’re trying to tell me is that freemans are all violent thugs who are dogmatic about what they believe in and beat up police? if so that just sounds ridiculous!

    No, not all the people who become involved or interested in this organisation are (any more than say animal rights or eco-protestors which also contain extremist, violent, dogmatic elements but also relatively peaceful (if opinionated activists) but this movement, and its American forerunners do tend to attract a certain type of angry man, who is hostile to Government and other public sector organisations often for selfish reasons, is argumentative and has often been involved in violent conflicts over relatively trivial matters. Several independent sources ranging from indymedia to even footy casuals on forums have confirmed a strong presence of current or former BNP members at some of their “activism”, particularly the ones where they claimed to evict a judge out of a Court due to some legal proceeding (he simply activated whatever procedures Court workers use when they consider their safety to be at risk).

    This sort of “partiarchal libertarianism” is fine for healthy men who can look after themselves in conflict – it does not however create a just and equal society for all. Thats why we ended up with democracy and governments in the first place, rather than the old “common law” which when you look at it properly gives a lot more power to male land/property owners than a European country today.

    What is far more important and relevant is that their campaigns are flawed and even if they find one loophole it will be swiftly closed and many of them are quietly being turned over for much worse charges than they started with, including civil debts and have lost their houses and vehicles when they would have otherwise got a minor fine for what is often a petty traffic offence or beef about Council Taxes because some get spent on something they disagree with.

    Even centre right governments aren’t going to abandon collecting taxes or certain public services, nor are they going to drop out of the EU on a whim.

    #1151146
    AvatarGeneral Lighting
    Moderator

    @p0ly 454621 wrote:

    so what you’re trying to tell me is that freemans are all violent thugs who are dogmatic about what they believe in and beat up police? if so that just sounds ridiculous!

    No, not all the people who become involved or interested in this organisation are (any more than say animal rights or eco-protestors which also contain extremist, violent, dogmatic elements but also relatively peaceful (if opinionated activists) but this movement, and its American forerunners do tend to attract a certain type of angry man, who is hostile to Government and other public sector organisations often for selfish reasons, is argumentative and has often been involved in violent conflicts over relatively trivial matters. Several independent sources ranging from indymedia to even footy casuals on forums have confirmed a strong presence of current or former BNP members at some of their “activism”, particularly the ones where they claimed to evict a judge out of a Court due to some legal proceeding (he simply activated whatever procedures Court workers use when they consider their safety to be at risk).

    This sort of “partiarchal libertarianism” is fine for healthy men who can look after themselves in conflict – it does not however create a just and equal society for all. Thats why we ended up with democracy and governments in the first place, rather than the old “common law” which when you look at it properly gives a lot more power to male land/property owners than a European country today.

    What is far more important and relevant is that their campaigns are flawed and even if they find one loophole it will be swiftly closed and many of them are quietly being turned over for much worse charges than they started with, including civil debts and have lost their houses and vehicles when they would have otherwise got a minor fine for what is often a petty traffic offence or beef about Council Taxes because some get spent on something they disagree with.

    Even centre right governments aren’t going to abandon collecting taxes or certain public services, nor are they going to drop out of the EU on a whim.

    #1135142
    Avatarp0ly
    Participant

    the thing is though freeman say they abide by common law and not statutes, common law if i’m not mistaken involves violence.

    so just saying that a few freeman are naughty boys is just like people banging on about priest rapists.

    #1169864
    Avatarp0ly
    Participant

    the thing is though freeman say they abide by common law and not statutes, common law if i’m not mistaken involves violence.

    so just saying that a few freeman are naughty boys is just like people banging on about priest rapists.

    #1129325
    AvatarGeneral Lighting
    Moderator

    @p0ly 454631 wrote:

    the thing is though freeman say they abide by common law and not statutes, common law if i’m not mistaken involves violence.

    common law punishes unprovoked violence but allows violence in self defence or that of private property – however this can be interpreted in a number of ways.

    Quote:
    so just saying that a few freeman are naughty boys is just like people banging on about priest rapists.

    A fair amount of faith group leaders (of all faith groups from Christian to Pagan) have indeed been involved in sex abuse crimes, and have only recently been brought to justice. Again it doesn’t mean they are all like that (I’ve met many good religious folk TBH) but until the absolute power of these groups was diminished and they were not brought to scrutiny some were going unjudged and unpunished.

    Where the “idealism” of this “freeman” movement falls apart is (not unlike religion until recently) its stuck in the middle ages.

    It does not take into account modern social developments such as women being independent, multiculturalism and united groups of countries, and foolishly assumes that all men are like the original knights of medieval times, and so will be honourable and don’t need a central goverment to tell them how to ride their horses (or drive their cars), and that they need only pay taxes for what they agree with. (In fact knights had fairly robust riding lessons/tests and taxes existed in England since 1066).

    I can’t remember which Monty Python film it was where they were all knights but its not that dissimilar TBH – but not half as funny as decent people are also getting sucked in and just landing themselves in more shit.

    #1151148
    AvatarGeneral Lighting
    Moderator

    @p0ly 454631 wrote:

    the thing is though freeman say they abide by common law and not statutes, common law if i’m not mistaken involves violence.

    common law punishes unprovoked violence but allows violence in self defence or that of private property – however this can be interpreted in a number of ways.

    Quote:
    so just saying that a few freeman are naughty boys is just like people banging on about priest rapists.

    A fair amount of faith group leaders (of all faith groups from Christian to Pagan) have indeed been involved in sex abuse crimes, and have only recently been brought to justice. Again it doesn’t mean they are all like that (I’ve met many good religious folk TBH) but until the absolute power of these groups was diminished and they were not brought to scrutiny some were going unjudged and unpunished.

    Where the “idealism” of this “freeman” movement falls apart is (not unlike religion until recently) its stuck in the middle ages.

    It does not take into account modern social developments such as women being independent, multiculturalism and united groups of countries, and foolishly assumes that all men are like the original knights of medieval times, and so will be honourable and don’t need a central goverment to tell them how to ride their horses (or drive their cars), and that they need only pay taxes for what they agree with. (In fact knights had fairly robust riding lessons/tests and taxes existed in England since 1066).

    I can’t remember which Monty Python film it was where they were all knights but its not that dissimilar TBH – but not half as funny as decent people are also getting sucked in and just landing themselves in more shit.

    #1135150
    Avatarp0ly
    Participant

    You seem very anti freeman and are giving many accusations where i dunno where you got it from. please show me some evidence which suggests that freeman are sexist and violent because i’ve only seen peaceful people to do with it, maybe they are argumentative at times with regard to law enforcement but they have a right to free speech and i never saw them being offensive or out of order (also a lot of them actually got away with the crap police were trying to do them for because it is stupid).

    #1169866
    Avatarp0ly
    Participant

    You seem very anti freeman and are giving many accusations where i dunno where you got it from. please show me some evidence which suggests that freeman are sexist and violent because i’ve only seen peaceful people to do with it, maybe they are argumentative at times with regard to law enforcement but they have a right to free speech and i never saw them being offensive or out of order (also a lot of them actually got away with the crap police were trying to do them for because it is stupid).

    #1129327
    AvatarGeneral Lighting
    Moderator

    Most of them(many older than me) aren’t daft enough to put themselves on youtube doing anything blatantly illegal. Its also not entirely proveable that all of the policemen featured in the films are real ones. You can rent authentic Police uniforms, even entire vehicles, from places what supply the Film and TV industry. They do audit who uses them but its not illegal to make a crime drama movie. There are plenty of out of work actors (and even former Police officers) who could pose as a copper.

    The first link explains why the legal stuff doesn’t work.

    The second does of course come from a leftie group (and acknowledges that also “hippies” were present as well) but confirms the BNP and other right wingers having some involvement.

    Freeman on the land – RationalWiki
    The British Constitution Group in Birkenhead « Liverpool Antifascists

    #1151150
    AvatarGeneral Lighting
    Moderator

    Most of them(many older than me) aren’t daft enough to put themselves on youtube doing anything blatantly illegal. Its also not entirely proveable that all of the policemen featured in the films are real ones. You can rent authentic Police uniforms, even entire vehicles, from places what supply the Film and TV industry. They do audit who uses them but its not illegal to make a crime drama movie. There are plenty of out of work actors (and even former Police officers) who could pose as a copper.

    The first link explains why the legal stuff doesn’t work.

    The second does of course come from a leftie group (and acknowledges that also “hippies” were present as well) but confirms the BNP and other right wingers having some involvement.

    Freeman on the land – RationalWiki
    The British Constitution Group in Birkenhead « Liverpool Antifascists

    #1135157
    Avatarp0ly
    Participant

    @General Lighting 454640 wrote:

    Freeman on the land – RationalWiki

    Rationalwiki?? what the hell. I don’t trust some of these articles because anyone can submit a wiki report and seeing as wiki is quite big name i don’t think they’d want ANYONE knowing that they can opt out of certain corporate laws.

    George Bush has a set of people who constantly change his wikipedia page when people try to edit it, really makes the information fair.

    Errr won’t there be BNP and racist people in all kinds of groups and movements how is this related? seems just like a stupid reason to try and discredit them.

    #1169868
    Avatarp0ly
    Participant

    @General Lighting 454640 wrote:

    Freeman on the land – RationalWiki

    Rationalwiki?? what the hell. I don’t trust some of these articles because anyone can submit a wiki report and seeing as wiki is quite big name i don’t think they’d want ANYONE knowing that they can opt out of certain corporate laws.

    George Bush has a set of people who constantly change his wikipedia page when people try to edit it, really makes the information fair.

    Errr won’t there be BNP and racist people in all kinds of groups and movements how is this related? seems just like a stupid reason to try and discredit them.

    #1136101
    Avatarwickle
    Participant

    @p0ly 454543 wrote:

    you tried dipenhydramine?

    no would you recommend it?

    #1170309
    Avatarwickle
    Participant

    @p0ly 454543 wrote:

    you tried dipenhydramine?

    no would you recommend it?

    #1129328
    AvatarGeneral Lighting
    Moderator

    @p0ly 454646 wrote:

    Rationalwiki?? what the hell. I don’t trust some of these articles because anyone can submit a wiki report and seeing as wiki is quite big name i don’t think they’d want ANYONE knowing that they can opt out of certain corporate laws.

    Rationalwiki is an independent website (more so than wikipedia) – ironically the same applies to the blogs the “freemen” put up.

    The cops / Government aren’t going to go to all the trouble of writing entire articles on such sites when they have the power to put people in prison anyway for not paying council tax, or can seize cars / arrest people etc. Ironically “cheating the public revenue” is a common law offence!

    Countries which have “common law” include Zimbabwe, Pakistan, Malaysia and Singapore amongst others, which aren’t the most free nations in the world. It is not a automatic guarantee of freedom and autonomy, especially if they end up with a “strong government and strong leader” or a monarchy.

    If people really could opt out of paying whatever taxes they wanted, even the Tories would pass emergency legislation to change the loophole very quickly.

    Quote:
    Errr won’t there be BNP and racist people in all kinds of groups and movements how is this related? seems just like a stupid reason to try and discredit them.

    This particular group, because it opposes the EU and goes on about the “British Constitution” tends to attract more nationalists by its nature.

    Any group harbouring extremists should be judged, and that includes the music scene.

    Even the rave scene has suffered from attempts to inflitrate it by the hard right with varying degrees of success (the whole split between happy hardcore and drum and bass was in part fuelled by racial tensions), and black Muslim extremists (Nation of Islam) getting a foothold in legal the security industry of London legal dance events. There was a Muslim jungle drum and bass crew from West London once but they were in fact decent moderate blokes who liked to party..

    But racism/extremism isn’t even that clear cut. people change their views over the years,

    I’ve got friends what used to be National Front, I’ve also seen “hippies” cross over to the hard right because they’ve “lost their jobs to immigrants”. Whilst working in a large financial services company in Reading I’ve also had a white guy (politely) say I should take down a Union Flag I had put up by my desk as it was “too nationalist”, despite me pointing out both of us are English!

    The “race/nationalist” issie is just one issue with this “freeman” stuff. the reality is in this country that activism of unelected campaign groups is thwarted by various political and legal means, and certain activists then do turn to extremism. Others only join for the conflict and often turn up at whatever group is currently popular. I’d say exactly the same about the animal rights movement and the environmental movement and many left wing/Green organisations as well as the hard right. I’ve met plenty folk in these who are there for the “wrong” reasons and who end up damaging the causes and putting others in danger through their own selfishness and anger.

    If you really don’t like taxes or regulations in one country, all of us have the freedom to vote for different governments or to move to at least 26 others (and even more if you can pass the immigration laws of non-EU nations)

    #1151189
    AvatarGeneral Lighting
    Moderator

    @p0ly 454646 wrote:

    Rationalwiki?? what the hell. I don’t trust some of these articles because anyone can submit a wiki report and seeing as wiki is quite big name i don’t think they’d want ANYONE knowing that they can opt out of certain corporate laws.

    Rationalwiki is an independent website (more so than wikipedia) – ironically the same applies to the blogs the “freemen” put up.

    The cops / Government aren’t going to go to all the trouble of writing entire articles on such sites when they have the power to put people in prison anyway for not paying council tax, or can seize cars / arrest people etc. Ironically “cheating the public revenue” is a common law offence!

    Countries which have “common law” include Zimbabwe, Pakistan, Malaysia and Singapore amongst others, which aren’t the most free nations in the world. It is not a automatic guarantee of freedom and autonomy, especially if they end up with a “strong government and strong leader” or a monarchy.

    If people really could opt out of paying whatever taxes they wanted, even the Tories would pass emergency legislation to change the loophole very quickly.

    Quote:
    Errr won’t there be BNP and racist people in all kinds of groups and movements how is this related? seems just like a stupid reason to try and discredit them.

    This particular group, because it opposes the EU and goes on about the “British Constitution” tends to attract more nationalists by its nature.

    Any group harbouring extremists should be judged, and that includes the music scene.

    Even the rave scene has suffered from attempts to inflitrate it by the hard right with varying degrees of success (the whole split between happy hardcore and drum and bass was in part fuelled by racial tensions), and black Muslim extremists (Nation of Islam) getting a foothold in legal the security industry of London legal dance events. There was a Muslim jungle drum and bass crew from West London once but they were in fact decent moderate blokes who liked to party..

    But racism/extremism isn’t even that clear cut. people change their views over the years,

    I’ve got friends what used to be National Front, I’ve also seen “hippies” cross over to the hard right because they’ve “lost their jobs to immigrants”. Whilst working in a large financial services company in Reading I’ve also had a white guy (politely) say I should take down a Union Flag I had put up by my desk as it was “too nationalist”, despite me pointing out both of us are English!

    The “race/nationalist” issie is just one issue with this “freeman” stuff. the reality is in this country that activism of unelected campaign groups is thwarted by various political and legal means, and certain activists then do turn to extremism. Others only join for the conflict and often turn up at whatever group is currently popular. I’d say exactly the same about the animal rights movement and the environmental movement and many left wing/Green organisations as well as the hard right. I’ve met plenty folk in these who are there for the “wrong” reasons and who end up damaging the causes and putting others in danger through their own selfishness and anger.

    If you really don’t like taxes or regulations in one country, all of us have the freedom to vote for different governments or to move to at least 26 others (and even more if you can pass the immigration laws of non-EU nations)

    #1135165
    Avatarp0ly
    Participant

    Well i’m going to post the rationalwiki article on freeman sites to see what they say. I’m not a freeman and i wouldn’t expect to get off a lot of these crimes but i do think there is elements of truth in it which can be extracted and useful, just have to find them.

    I’ve heard of people even someone i met in South of France who’s a musician called ‘Freeman’ (we hired him to come play at our house party) and he was able to avoid taxing his car.

    #1169871
    Avatarp0ly
    Participant

    Well i’m going to post the rationalwiki article on freeman sites to see what they say. I’m not a freeman and i wouldn’t expect to get off a lot of these crimes but i do think there is elements of truth in it which can be extracted and useful, just have to find them.

    I’ve heard of people even someone i met in South of France who’s a musician called ‘Freeman’ (we hired him to come play at our house party) and he was able to avoid taxing his car.

    #1142870
    AvatarTheLostOne
    Participant

    People who avoid paying taxes are dicks generally.

    #1171534
    AvatarTheLostOne
    Participant

    People who avoid paying taxes are dicks generally.

    #1135172
    Avatarp0ly
    Participant

    @TheLostOne 454657 wrote:

    People who avoid paying taxes are dicks generally.

    Why!!?

    Yeah where would we get the money for war from without taxing people.

    #1169873
    Avatarp0ly
    Participant

    @TheLostOne 454657 wrote:

    People who avoid paying taxes are dicks generally.

    Why!!?

    Yeah where would we get the money for war from without taxing people.

    #1142875
    AvatarTheLostOne
    Participant

    You know, I mean to go out of there way to pay taxes, yet bask in the fruits of what taxes have paid for. Ie roads and hospitals which they will all use, while at the same time use all the services. TBF poly that comment wasnt really serious, but obviously taxes need to be paid. I you dont want to pay taxes go live in a field, dont send you kids to school, dont use the NHS, dont drive, then its fine. Just pisses me off when people preach about not paying taxes, in some misted, deluded hippy opinion.

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