- This topic has 50 replies, 9 voices, and was last updated June 30, 2009 at 3:44 pm by ketordeath.
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June 23, 2009 at 2:03 pm #1201941June 23, 2009 at 2:34 pm #1201950ellie;335948 wrote:I dont see how belief in a religion has any more substance than beliefs from parents media etc. I would say that religion IS, in most cases, a belief formed from the messages we are exposed to at birth from our parents… and are full of errors.
but yeah, i see your point if you were to say that they were perhaps equally blind faiths.
i’m not saying religious doctorines and beliefs are without error. more that they provide a good moral framework (not a perfect one) , better i would argue than for example what charleen did on neighbours or what chantel said on big brother or what billy brag said. i bet charleens not even in neighbours anymore, lol, what an old bastard i am!
June 23, 2009 at 2:40 pm #1201928dougmelv;335993 wrote:i’m not saying religious doctorines and beliefs are without error. more that they provide a good moral framework (not a perfect one) , better i would argue than for example what charleen did on neighbours or what chantel said on big brother or what billy brag said. i bet charleens not even in neighbours anymore, lol, what an old bastard i am!ha ha. dont think chantel is in big brother either 😉
i dont think i agree with you at all. if you pick out the good bits from the bible then yeah, great morals. but then you have to cut out the homophobia etc. and if you are a christian who doesnt agree with homophobia – then that just shows the abiguity of the bible. also, i dont know anyone who takes charleen or chantel, as speaking sense, let alone speacking the gospel truth!
June 23, 2009 at 2:54 pm #1201942@dougmelv 335993 wrote:
i’m not saying religious doctorines and beliefs are without error. more that they provide a good moral framework (not a perfect one) , better i would argue than for example what charleen did on neighbours or what chantel said on big brother or what billy brag said. i bet charleens not even in neighbours anymore, lol, what an old bastard i am!
Id say your conscience provides a better moral framework. I’ve always known hurting someone else is wrong despite how much I’ve observed my peers doing it or violence in the media. Also I’ve always known sex outside marriage is not wrong despite what the bible says, because it doesnt feel wrong when you’re in a loving relationship.
As jiminy cricket said, ‘always let your conscience be your guide’
Although I do wonder if evil bastards have a conscience and surpress it, or just dont at all..
what is a conscience when you get down to it? how do we know to do unto others as we would haev them do unto us? I didnt have to be taught that I’ve always been nice to people and sad when other people are sad..
June 23, 2009 at 2:54 pm #1201951yes, don’t throw the baby out with the bath water when thinking about religious belief. alot of stuff in religious texts is very relevant to how good people think and there is lots of stuff in there that i had/ have not thought about but has had/could have a very positive effect on my world veiw. I’ve not read it all. its on my to do list along with half a million other things. what i have read has been really useful. but i agree their is some pretty offensive stuff in their too. Not all christians want to stone homosexuals, Gene Robinson for exmple. Any way i’m not trying to defend christians, some of them are intollerant hate mongers of which i’m sure Jesus would not approve.
ellie;335998 wrote:also, i dont know anyone who takes charleen or chantel, as speaking sense, let alone speacking the gospel truth!Jade, god rest her soul (cough!), seemed to have quite a following.
June 23, 2009 at 2:59 pm #1201929dougmelv;336009 wrote:Jade, god rest her soul (cough!), seemed to have quite a following.yeah, but i don’t know any of them. 😉 plus, its fickle. none of them give a sh*t about her anymore.
June 23, 2009 at 3:00 pm #1201952Iacchus;336007 wrote:Id say your conscience provides a better moral framework. I’ve always known hurting someone else is wrong despite how much I’ve observed my peers doing it or violence in the media. Also I’ve always known sex outside marriage is not wrong despite what the bible says, because it doesnt feel wrong when you’re in a loving relationship.As jiminy cricket said, ‘always let your conscience be your guide’
Although I do wonder if evil bastards have a conscience and surpress it, or just dont at all..
what is a conscience when you get down to it? how do we know to do unto others as we would haev them do unto us? I didnt have to be taught that I’ve always been nice to people and sad when other people are sad..
i would argue your concience could be trace back through past generations to religious instruction. for example my great grandad who i never met was a preist. although my mother was not religious she gave me the foundations of my moral framework which was taught to her by her mother who was religious.
June 23, 2009 at 3:04 pm #1201943@dougmelv 336013 wrote:
i would argue your concience could be trace back through past generations to religious instruction. for example my great grandad who i never met was a preist. although my mother was not religious she gave me the foundations of my moral framework which was taught to her by her mother who was religious.
My morality differers fairly strongly from my families tho who are are all hardcore christians several generations back. I quite probably got my empathic tendancies from my upbringing but they all consider sex drugs and rock and roll wrong but I definately dont raaa
I agree previous generations definately contribute to conscience but I’m pretty sure if you completely removed any upbringing from someone they would still develop their own morality… how does one test this theory? :weee:
June 23, 2009 at 3:05 pm #1201953ellie;336010 wrote:yeah, but i don’t know any of them. 😉 plus, its fickle. none of them give a sh*t about her anymore.thats my point. the fickle nature of modern belief formation vs the established moral framework of religion.
June 23, 2009 at 3:06 pm #1201930dougmelv;336017 wrote:thats my point. the fickle nature of modern belief formation vs the established moral framework of religion.but religious fundamentalists aren’t a good thing.
June 23, 2009 at 3:08 pm #1201954Iacchus;336015 wrote:I agree previous generations definately contribute to conscience but I’m pretty sure if you completely removed any upbringing from someone they would still develop their own morality… how does one test this theory? :weee:come and look at the children of the drug addicts and alchoholics on my estate!
June 23, 2009 at 3:10 pm #1201955ellie;336019 wrote:but religious fundamentalists aren’t a good thing.no they are nuts.
June 23, 2009 at 3:12 pm #1201944@dougmelv 336020 wrote:
come and look at the children of the drug addicts and alchoholics on my estate!
I dont consider being a drug addict or an alcoholic immoral though.. not unless you harm other people as part of the process.
If you’re going to point out they definately do harm other people as part of the process, I’d have to ask is that due to a lack of religion in their upbringing or just poverty and a lack of general eduction? Rich/educated athiests usually have high moral standards
June 23, 2009 at 3:23 pm #1201956its fine to be a drug addict, they are only harming their selves, up until the point where they neglect their children sometimes causing them irreperable damage. the point i was making was that if you want to see what happens when children are left to their own devises to bring them selves up, i can tell you. they make up their own rules through negotiation with their peers. by 12 they might think it is ok to stab someone if they disrespect them.
got to go pick this up ltr
June 23, 2009 at 3:33 pm #1201945@dougmelv 336028 wrote:
its fine to be a drug addict, they are only harming their selves, up until the point where they neglect their children sometimes causing them irreperable damage. the point i was making was that if you want to see what happens when children are left to their own devises to bring them selves up, i can tell you. they make up their own rules through negotiation with their peers. by 12 they might think it is ok to stab someone if they disrespect them.
got to go pick this up ltr
I see what you mean.. I wonder if there is a conscience inside them fighting the ‘logic’ that seems to come forth from their peers, or they just dont at all think there’s anything wrong. ALso wonder if their parents teaching good morals from an early age would cause them to not fall in with the wrong crowds etc.
June 23, 2009 at 3:54 pm #1201931dougmelv;336020 wrote:come and look at the children of the drug addicts and alchoholics on my estate!dougmelv;336021 wrote:no they are nuts.you seem to pick out the ‘bad’ people who dont follow religious doctrine but won’t accept the ‘bad’ people who do follow religious doctrine. surely it shows there is good and bad whether you follow the bible or not.
June 23, 2009 at 6:14 pm #1201932for as long as i can remember i have denied religion a place in me, i have always followed my own heart and ive tried to minimise external influence on my morals. i can safely say, that today i am a caring ‘nice’, friendly person who wouldnt ever want to do harm to anyone for nothing, and i wouldnt pick on a stranger.. this is just down to how i percieve the world, hate takes up extra time, effort and energy which we dont need, we can peacefully coexist much more easily than we can live in fear and aggresiveness.. i can form my own morals without a religious text giving me guidelines.. imo, it kind of just states the obvious, we dont need to read the bible or be religious to understand that we shouldnt kill another..
June 23, 2009 at 6:25 pm #1201918joshd96320;336075 wrote:imo, it kind of just states the obvious, we dont need to read the bible or be religious to understand that we shouldnt kill another..you know that josh
it’s funny when religious people go on about MORALS COMING FROM THE BIBLE!! so if they didnt have the bible they’d go around raping and killing?
June 23, 2009 at 6:26 pm #1201933@p0lygon-Window 336079 wrote:
you know that josh
it’s funny when religious people go on about MORALS COMING FROM THE BIBLE!! so if they didnt have the bible they’d go around raping and killing?
hahaha init!
June 23, 2009 at 6:36 pm #1201957ellie;336050 wrote:you seem to pick out the ‘bad’ people who dont follow religious doctrine but won’t accept the ‘bad’ people who do follow religious doctrine. surely it shows there is good and bad whether you follow the bible or not.things arn’t always as they seem. i was only using the problem children on my estate to illustrate what can happen without moral supervision.
i think religious extremists are nuts. ie crazy. and lots of bad people follow religious doctorines.
i don’t think world or social problems are going to be sloved by people converting to religion on mass. there are too many competing ideologies on the world stage.
the genie is out the bottle in this country . the power of the church as a social governing institution is deminished and the control of ideas by the church is broken. if it keeps people doing good things then its still a good thing. it does also offer a tried and tested option for self improvement and moral retraining and i would highly recomend it to any reprobates out there.
and before we are too quick to point out the error of other peoples beliefs ( in what we see as myth and legend), we should think about our own beliefs and how accurate they are.
its one thing to be able to say‘yeh religion sucks only a fool would believe that stuff’
but if the beliefs we have instead are largley incorrect then we haven’t really progressed that far at all.
hmm…
perhaps the bible will give me some insight….
got to go now and do busy stuff now. an idle mind is the devils work shop. 😉
June 23, 2009 at 7:02 pm #1201958p0lygon-Window;336079 wrote:you know that joshit’s funny when religious people go on about MORALS COMING FROM THE BIBLE!! so if they didnt have the bible they’d go around raping and killing?
isnt that what happened in ancient times?? i don’t know my history that well yet but i think the vikings probably did a bit of raping and pilaging.
prehistoric man i’m sure did a bit of raping and killing as well.morals don’t only come from the bible but they are in there. without MORALS we probably would go about raping and killing on a whim.
June 23, 2009 at 7:50 pm #1201919dougmelv;336086 wrote:isnt that what happened in ancient times?? i don’t know my history that well yet but i think the vikings probably did a bit of raping and pilaging.
prehistoric man i’m sure did a bit of raping and killing as well.morals don’t only come from the bible but they are in there. without MORALS we probably would go about raping and killing on a whim.
ye and i bet alot of religious people rape and kill, infact i’m certain
June 23, 2009 at 8:48 pm #1201911religeous people invented hell and the devil .. for that i hate them all :laugh_at:
June 23, 2009 at 9:54 pm #1201920arent the morals of religion fear of hell?
i dont believe in hell and i want to be a good moral person, HA
June 24, 2009 at 10:01 am #1201946@p0lygon-Window 336113 wrote:
arent the morals of religion fear of hell?
i dont believe in hell and i want to be a good moral person, HA
kind of.. fear of hell is the motivation for the rules that you do not understand. Religious types dont need fear of hell to tell them that it’s wrong to hurt people. But they dont understand rules about sex and drugs (because they are not logical) so the fear of hell fills in the gaps.
Concepts like hell is definately one of the worst things to come out of religion.
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