Forums The Vibe Chat Question for GL and anyone else politically minded..

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  • #1118517
    General Lighting
    Moderator

    at present pills might as well be legal as you can buy loads cheaply and not get in that much serious trouble – the war on drugs was lost 20 years ago, ironically when thatcho opened up the trade routes and sped up Customs procedures (particularly round here on the East Coast)

    people are already caning them and burdening the NHS and everyone who is curious can find out about pills already because of sites like this and SJ and Erowid, high school kids can easily get any sort of drug these days… the current drugs laws aren’t a deterrent as most youths these days aren’t as willing to blindly obey the law anyway – same as how they don’t see the problem with attending raves.

    Some form of decrminalisation and taxation (I am not even advocating full legalisation, and I think stuff like crack should remain illegal) would at least recover a few quid for the NHS which is already picking up the pieces anyway – About 90% of my family work in healthcare and some of them deal with treating mental health problems/drug addiction

    At the moment its 100% criminal market, even if half of this was regulated it would be better than nothing. You complain legal stuff is “taxed to fuck” – cigs are and rightly so because they are worse for you – but we can get booze cheaper than ever before and thats even with the taxation.

    Yes there will be people trying to buck the system with any dutied goods and If people are making fakes then thats the job of the authorities (who won’t be chasing after as many small timers) to catch them and arrest them (same as faking any other product) – plus not everyone is so cheap as to buy fakes. For instance with alcohol I’d rather buy a decent bottle of Scotch than some fake stuff what turned out to be industrial spirit from Latvia…

    djvu wrote:
    Doesnt matter what advice you give people,. SOme people wont listen the same people who dont listen to fag packet warnings the same people who dont mind drinking themselves into a stuoper every day the same people who would turn up to our already overloaded hospitals with seratonin disorders and depressive illnesses

    tobacco is bad and excessive alcohol use is bad but there are many moderate drinkers, and there are plenty of people who take recreational drugs in moderation and have done so for years and not fucked up all of their lives. There are actually as many 40/50 something ravers now with families, respectable jobs and houses as there are fuck-ups in rehab – many people calm down when they become parents or get decent careers but still party now and then.

    Are you arguing for more control, prohibition and restriction on the whole of British society from the Government merely because a minority cannot or will not self-regulate their lifestyles?

    Should the actions of the more stupid dictate how everyone else has to lead their lives?

    #1139247
    General Lighting
    Moderator

    at present pills might as well be legal as you can buy loads cheaply and not get in that much serious trouble – the war on drugs was lost 20 years ago, ironically when thatcho opened up the trade routes and sped up Customs procedures (particularly round here on the East Coast)

    people are already caning them and burdening the NHS and everyone who is curious can find out about pills already because of sites like this and SJ and Erowid, high school kids can easily get any sort of drug these days… the current drugs laws aren’t a deterrent as most youths these days aren’t as willing to blindly obey the law anyway – same as how they don’t see the problem with attending raves.

    Some form of decrminalisation and taxation (I am not even advocating full legalisation, and I think stuff like crack should remain illegal) would at least recover a few quid for the NHS which is already picking up the pieces anyway – About 90% of my family work in healthcare and some of them deal with treating mental health problems/drug addiction

    At the moment its 100% criminal market, even if half of this was regulated it would be better than nothing. You complain legal stuff is “taxed to fuck” – cigs are and rightly so because they are worse for you – but we can get booze cheaper than ever before and thats even with the taxation.

    Yes there will be people trying to buck the system with any dutied goods and If people are making fakes then thats the job of the authorities (who won’t be chasing after as many small timers) to catch them and arrest them (same as faking any other product) – plus not everyone is so cheap as to buy fakes. For instance with alcohol I’d rather buy a decent bottle of Scotch than some fake stuff what turned out to be industrial spirit from Latvia…

    djvu wrote:
    Doesnt matter what advice you give people,. SOme people wont listen the same people who dont listen to fag packet warnings the same people who dont mind drinking themselves into a stuoper every day the same people who would turn up to our already overloaded hospitals with seratonin disorders and depressive illnesses

    tobacco is bad and excessive alcohol use is bad but there are many moderate drinkers, and there are plenty of people who take recreational drugs in moderation and have done so for years and not fucked up all of their lives. There are actually as many 40/50 something ravers now with families, respectable jobs and houses as there are fuck-ups in rehab – many people calm down when they become parents or get decent careers but still party now and then.

    Are you arguing for more control, prohibition and restriction on the whole of British society from the Government merely because a minority cannot or will not self-regulate their lifestyles?

    Should the actions of the more stupid dictate how everyone else has to lead their lives?

    #1118524
    djvu
    Participant
    General Lighting wrote:
    at present pills might as well be legal as you can buy loads cheaply and not get in that much serious trouble – the war on drugs was lost 20 years ago, ironically when thatcho opened up the trade routes and sped up Customs procedures (particularly round here on the East Coast)

    people are already caning them and burdening the NHS and everyone who is curious can find out about pills already because of sites like this and SJ and Erowid, high school kids can easily get any sort of drug these days… the current drugs laws aren’t a deterrent as most youths these days aren’t as willing to blindly obey the law anyway – same as how they don’t see the problem with attending raves.

    Some form of decrminalisation and taxation would at least recover a few quid for the NHS which is already picking up the pieces anyway (about 90% of my family work in healthcare and some of them deal with treating mental health problems/drug addiction) rather than a 100% criminal market.

    Yes there will be people trying to buck the system with any dutied goods and If people are making fakes then thats the job of the authorities (who won’t be chasing after as many small timers) to catch them and arrest them (same as faking any other product) – plus not everyone is so cheap as to buy fakes. For instance with alcohol I’d rather buy a decent bottle of Scotch than some fake stuff what turned out to be industrial spirit from Latvia…

    tobacco is bad and excessive alcohol use is bad but there are many moderate drinkers, and there are plenty of people who take recreational drugs or have done so for years and not fucked up all of their lives.

    are you arguing for more control, prohibition and restriction on the whole of British society from the Government merely because a minority cannot or will not self-regulate their lifestyles? Should the more stupid dictate how everyone else has to lead their lives?

    People cannot and some will not self regulate there lifestyles in more ways than drugs hence why the govermerment impose laws but those who can seek to do things the more closit way. Bringing in pills legally would introduce all sorts of complications and they are abused period. People like yourself more than likely are strong headed, strong willed and can give and take according to your limits and capabiltys of a substance user which is why i think you find it hard to comprehend how some other peoplearnt like that and need to be protected from something which is far from natural and something which has and can potentionally change peoples lives and mindset

    People who cannot cope maybee through down times ect ect would use it to self medicate them selves in the same way a beer would

    You on the other hand knows better but alot dont which what makes us individuals.

    In all for it to be kept illegal would be one less worry for the goverment other than the huge implications it would cause to make it legal

    Same goes for any other drug from a-c

    #1139254
    djvu
    Participant
    General Lighting wrote:
    at present pills might as well be legal as you can buy loads cheaply and not get in that much serious trouble – the war on drugs was lost 20 years ago, ironically when thatcho opened up the trade routes and sped up Customs procedures (particularly round here on the East Coast)

    people are already caning them and burdening the NHS and everyone who is curious can find out about pills already because of sites like this and SJ and Erowid, high school kids can easily get any sort of drug these days… the current drugs laws aren’t a deterrent as most youths these days aren’t as willing to blindly obey the law anyway – same as how they don’t see the problem with attending raves.

    Some form of decrminalisation and taxation would at least recover a few quid for the NHS which is already picking up the pieces anyway (about 90% of my family work in healthcare and some of them deal with treating mental health problems/drug addiction) rather than a 100% criminal market.

    Yes there will be people trying to buck the system with any dutied goods and If people are making fakes then thats the job of the authorities (who won’t be chasing after as many small timers) to catch them and arrest them (same as faking any other product) – plus not everyone is so cheap as to buy fakes. For instance with alcohol I’d rather buy a decent bottle of Scotch than some fake stuff what turned out to be industrial spirit from Latvia…

    tobacco is bad and excessive alcohol use is bad but there are many moderate drinkers, and there are plenty of people who take recreational drugs or have done so for years and not fucked up all of their lives.

    are you arguing for more control, prohibition and restriction on the whole of British society from the Government merely because a minority cannot or will not self-regulate their lifestyles? Should the more stupid dictate how everyone else has to lead their lives?

    People cannot and some will not self regulate there lifestyles in more ways than drugs hence why the govermerment impose laws but those who can seek to do things the more closit way. Bringing in pills legally would introduce all sorts of complications and they are abused period. People like yourself more than likely are strong headed, strong willed and can give and take according to your limits and capabiltys of a substance user which is why i think you find it hard to comprehend how some other peoplearnt like that and need to be protected from something which is far from natural and something which has and can potentionally change peoples lives and mindset

    People who cannot cope maybee through down times ect ect would use it to self medicate them selves in the same way a beer would

    You on the other hand knows better but alot dont which what makes us individuals.

    In all for it to be kept illegal would be one less worry for the goverment other than the huge implications it would cause to make it legal

    Same goes for any other drug from a-c

    #1118525
    djvu
    Participant

    im off to bed work tommoz so i wont repkly tonight but its a intresting convo and i will visit tommorow
    nite

    #1139255
    djvu
    Participant

    im off to bed work tommoz so i wont repkly tonight but its a intresting convo and i will visit tommorow
    nite

    #1118518
    General Lighting
    Moderator
    djvu wrote:
    People cannot and some will not self regulate there lifestyles in more ways than drugs hence why the govermerment impose laws but those who can seek to do things the more closit way.

    I wasn’t born with in built “drug awareness”, I was one of the first generation of ravers and learnt some of the things the hard way. I’ve also lost friends and family to various addictions or overdoses over the years, but I still feel strongly that Government regulation doesn’t work.

    Decent people get criminalised, others ignore the law anyway and people don’t stop problematic drug use just because the Govt/old bill tell them to (or even if they end up in jail). Did the fact pills were illegal (and penalties far harsher in the early 90s) actually stop either of us (and many others on this forum) from taking them?

    The problem with using the law here is unlike theft or violence or even property damage which most decent people feel are morally wrong, many otherwise law-abiding people do not mind a bit of hedonism.

    There are already millions of recreational drug users (including clubs and licensed parties) their numbers are growing each day. I know people just a few years older than us now who regularly go raving with their teenage children and tolerate and accept each others drug use, whilst living as perfectly functional families!

    Most people who overdo party drugs just learn that they are losing friendships, relationships or fucking up work/education because of this; and eventually come to their senses, even if it takes a few months or years, rather than dropping dead or going “mental”. The large bulk of them don’t even require the NHS to sort this out.

    Quote:
    Bringing in pills legally would introduce all sorts of complications and they are abused period.

    I wouldn’t advocate a “big bang” legalisation (which would need to involve the EU and UN) but phased decriminalisation with the conditions I mentioned earlier (i.e no drug driving / anti social behaviour). there may be a risk of “increased addiction” but people with addictive/obsessive personalities should get treatment anyway as its not just drugs they will have a problem with.

    I don’t think the drugs problem amongst party people is anything like the 90s – but thats fuck all to do with enforcement or even different stuff in pills, its because ravers themselves are more clued up these days. Amongst my younger friends many party hard but they have jobs and college and aren’t fucking up their lives – when it gets too much they know when to calm down and they aren’t moving on to the harder stuff. Even the K-heads eventually learn what they are doing to themselves. I don’t dispute some people go overboard but if it was really as bad as it was painted there wouldn’t be many young people left alive!

    There is actually a “de facto” decriminalisation of drugs happening already – Governments worldwide can no longer enforce prohibition whilst keeping free trade routes.

    Although local cops here are harsh they only really consider crack and smack users to be problematic drug users (and rightly so), small time recreational users are left alone provided they don’t steal anything or kick off at their families/partners (which are crimes in themselves) which is a sign that zero tolerance isn’t working in some respects.

    In the country where my extended family live (Malaysia) where there was death penalty for any drugs use, they’ve (without admitting this) stopped executing as many small time users (they get forced rehab instead).

    To carry on the hardline stance would deplete the young population to an unacceptable extent, and wouldn’t “cleanse” the nation of “junkie scum” but people like computer programmers, accountants and other young professionals.

    Incidentally, the drugs culture we have now wouldn’t have happened without the late 1980s/1990s rave scene and people of our generation helped kick start it in this country – we , the old skool ravers are responsible for this. Are you now regretting being part of this and actually advocating it being locked down by the nanny state?

    #1139248
    General Lighting
    Moderator
    djvu wrote:
    People cannot and some will not self regulate there lifestyles in more ways than drugs hence why the govermerment impose laws but those who can seek to do things the more closit way.

    I wasn’t born with in built “drug awareness”, I was one of the first generation of ravers and learnt some of the things the hard way. I’ve also lost friends and family to various addictions or overdoses over the years, but I still feel strongly that Government regulation doesn’t work.

    Decent people get criminalised, others ignore the law anyway and people don’t stop problematic drug use just because the Govt/old bill tell them to (or even if they end up in jail). Did the fact pills were illegal (and penalties far harsher in the early 90s) actually stop either of us (and many others on this forum) from taking them?

    The problem with using the law here is unlike theft or violence or even property damage which most decent people feel are morally wrong, many otherwise law-abiding people do not mind a bit of hedonism.

    There are already millions of recreational drug users (including clubs and licensed parties) their numbers are growing each day. I know people just a few years older than us now who regularly go raving with their teenage children and tolerate and accept each others drug use, whilst living as perfectly functional families!

    Most people who overdo party drugs just learn that they are losing friendships, relationships or fucking up work/education because of this; and eventually come to their senses, even if it takes a few months or years, rather than dropping dead or going “mental”. The large bulk of them don’t even require the NHS to sort this out.

    Quote:
    Bringing in pills legally would introduce all sorts of complications and they are abused period.

    I wouldn’t advocate a “big bang” legalisation (which would need to involve the EU and UN) but phased decriminalisation with the conditions I mentioned earlier (i.e no drug driving / anti social behaviour). there may be a risk of “increased addiction” but people with addictive/obsessive personalities should get treatment anyway as its not just drugs they will have a problem with.

    I don’t think the drugs problem amongst party people is anything like the 90s – but thats fuck all to do with enforcement or even different stuff in pills, its because ravers themselves are more clued up these days. Amongst my younger friends many party hard but they have jobs and college and aren’t fucking up their lives – when it gets too much they know when to calm down and they aren’t moving on to the harder stuff. Even the K-heads eventually learn what they are doing to themselves. I don’t dispute some people go overboard but if it was really as bad as it was painted there wouldn’t be many young people left alive!

    There is actually a “de facto” decriminalisation of drugs happening already – Governments worldwide can no longer enforce prohibition whilst keeping free trade routes.

    Although local cops here are harsh they only really consider crack and smack users to be problematic drug users (and rightly so), small time recreational users are left alone provided they don’t steal anything or kick off at their families/partners (which are crimes in themselves) which is a sign that zero tolerance isn’t working in some respects.

    In the country where my extended family live (Malaysia) where there was death penalty for any drugs use, they’ve (without admitting this) stopped executing as many small time users (they get forced rehab instead).

    To carry on the hardline stance would deplete the young population to an unacceptable extent, and wouldn’t “cleanse” the nation of “junkie scum” but people like computer programmers, accountants and other young professionals.

    Incidentally, the drugs culture we have now wouldn’t have happened without the late 1980s/1990s rave scene and people of our generation helped kick start it in this country – we , the old skool ravers are responsible for this. Are you now regretting being part of this and actually advocating it being locked down by the nanny state?

    #1118534
    Playground Politics
    Participant
    General Lighting wrote:
    I wasn’t born with in built “drug awareness”, I was one of the first generation of ravers and learnt some of the things the hard way..

    sounds like some stories need telling:groucho: stttooorrrryyy time, if u dont wanna tell them no worries actually as they maybe personal, also im butting in on an important thread

    #1139263
    Playground Politics
    Participant
    General Lighting wrote:
    I wasn’t born with in built “drug awareness”, I was one of the first generation of ravers and learnt some of the things the hard way..

    sounds like some stories need telling:groucho: stttooorrrryyy time, if u dont wanna tell them no worries actually as they maybe personal, also im butting in on an important thread

    #1118519
    General Lighting
    Moderator
    Playground Politics wrote:
    sounds like some stories need telling:groucho: stttooorrrryyy time, if u dont wanna tell them no worries actually as they maybe personal, also im butting in on an important thread

    nothing particularly interesting – its just that I had to learn about stuff like the emotional rollercoaster that MDMA/amfet will send you on without (initially) having resources like this site to guide me or know what was happening to me, as I was living in London on my own at the time and not everyone I knew were ravers…

    what I am getting at is times have progressed, – I feel a lot of the time society is punishing your generation for the sins of mine, and there are too many older people who have tasted freedom but want to snatch it away from the younger generation..

    #1139249
    General Lighting
    Moderator
    Playground Politics wrote:
    sounds like some stories need telling:groucho: stttooorrrryyy time, if u dont wanna tell them no worries actually as they maybe personal, also im butting in on an important thread

    nothing particularly interesting – its just that I had to learn about stuff like the emotional rollercoaster that MDMA/amfet will send you on without (initially) having resources like this site to guide me or know what was happening to me, as I was living in London on my own at the time and not everyone I knew were ravers…

    what I am getting at is times have progressed, – I feel a lot of the time society is punishing your generation for the sins of mine, and there are too many older people who have tasted freedom but want to snatch it away from the younger generation..

    #1118532
    process
    Participant
    General Lighting wrote:
    is it really another “political movement” people need? or just better organised party crews?

    There was the Freedom To Party movement in 1989 (the Young Tories!!!) with yuppies fighting for legal events on a commercial free enterprise basis (it was the 80s still)

    Then Altern 8 (the old skool lot who wore dust masks) set up a political party in 1992 (which was seen as amusing but achieved little else),

    Spiral tribe tried the political stuff and as an offshoot from them in 1994 there was the Advance Party movement which protested against the CJA but fractured due to internal politics (although it did contribute to the London free party scene for a bit)

    plus its difficult to argue the case for conventional underground parties when they already have been proven by bitter experience to get out of hand..

    Maybe all thats needed is a few more events like what Planet Yes did – well organised, held using the TENS system, only cost a fiver to get in (and me and my mates got in there for free, even if one of them did fall in a river on the way) – OK it means effort, discipline and organisation compared to a current free party but is it really that much of a climbdown?

    i know what your saying, but you could sort of call it something sensible, rather than save the rave! ๐Ÿ™‚ and have other ideals so as to sort of mask the main agenda. You could be pro-rave, but also sympathise with the anti rave brigade by saying that raves will continue and wouldnt it be better to regualte/monitor rather than just let it go on untouched (i know thats sort of what happens in some areas/countries already…) Its sort of like the legalising drugs issue. Also how many people do you think would vote for it. i mean theres gotta be a lot of disillisioned people that dont vote on principle or cant be bothered. Also there has to be a lot of ex-ravers that would vote(?) as well as current ones. Its just an idea after i read that book by Hunter S Thompson.Also does anyone know if anything like this has been attempted or better still been succesfull in other countries?cheers

    #1139261
    process
    Participant
    General Lighting wrote:
    is it really another “political movement” people need? or just better organised party crews?

    There was the Freedom To Party movement in 1989 (the Young Tories!!!) with yuppies fighting for legal events on a commercial free enterprise basis (it was the 80s still)

    Then Altern 8 (the old skool lot who wore dust masks) set up a political party in 1992 (which was seen as amusing but achieved little else),

    Spiral tribe tried the political stuff and as an offshoot from them in 1994 there was the Advance Party movement which protested against the CJA but fractured due to internal politics (although it did contribute to the London free party scene for a bit)

    plus its difficult to argue the case for conventional underground parties when they already have been proven by bitter experience to get out of hand..

    Maybe all thats needed is a few more events like what Planet Yes did – well organised, held using the TENS system, only cost a fiver to get in (and me and my mates got in there for free, even if one of them did fall in a river on the way) – OK it means effort, discipline and organisation compared to a current free party but is it really that much of a climbdown?

    i know what your saying, but you could sort of call it something sensible, rather than save the rave! ๐Ÿ™‚ and have other ideals so as to sort of mask the main agenda. You could be pro-rave, but also sympathise with the anti rave brigade by saying that raves will continue and wouldnt it be better to regualte/monitor rather than just let it go on untouched (i know thats sort of what happens in some areas/countries already…) Its sort of like the legalising drugs issue. Also how many people do you think would vote for it. i mean theres gotta be a lot of disillisioned people that dont vote on principle or cant be bothered. Also there has to be a lot of ex-ravers that would vote(?) as well as current ones. Its just an idea after i read that book by Hunter S Thompson.Also does anyone know if anything like this has been attempted or better still been succesfull in other countries?cheers

    #1118520
    General Lighting
    Moderator
    djprocess wrote:
    i know what your saying, but you could sort of call it something sensible, rather than save the rave! ๐Ÿ™‚ and have other ideals so as to sort of mask the main agenda.

    it then becomes just like any other progressive political movement, of which there are loads already. The problem with the more progressive political movements as opposed to conservative ones is because they all have free agendas and “respect each others views” they end up diluting their power as people splinter off into their single issue groups – whilst the better organised and led movements (i.e mainstream political parties) always win in the end through greater discipline..

    Quote:
    Also does anyone know if anything like this has been attempted or better still been succesfull in other countries?cheers

    in France the ravers there succesfully lobbied for large teknivals, but then destroyed their case by not organising well enough and allowing environmental damage and violent crime to happen at their events. Even then some teknivals still happen, but this part has become heavily commercialised.

    but for some reason they also got another chance where small parties with <500 people are tolerated in certain areas, a bit like the TENS license we can have in Britain but with less bureaucracy.

    #1139250
    General Lighting
    Moderator
    djprocess wrote:
    i know what your saying, but you could sort of call it something sensible, rather than save the rave! ๐Ÿ™‚ and have other ideals so as to sort of mask the main agenda.

    it then becomes just like any other progressive political movement, of which there are loads already. The problem with the more progressive political movements as opposed to conservative ones is because they all have free agendas and “respect each others views” they end up diluting their power as people splinter off into their single issue groups – whilst the better organised and led movements (i.e mainstream political parties) always win in the end through greater discipline..

    Quote:
    Also does anyone know if anything like this has been attempted or better still been succesfull in other countries?cheers

    in France the ravers there succesfully lobbied for large teknivals, but then destroyed their case by not organising well enough and allowing environmental damage and violent crime to happen at their events. Even then some teknivals still happen, but this part has become heavily commercialised.

    but for some reason they also got another chance where small parties with <500 people are tolerated in certain areas, a bit like the TENS license we can have in Britain but with less bureaucracy.

    #1118533
    process
    Participant
    General Lighting wrote:
    in France the ravers there succesfully lobbied for large teknivals, but then destroyed their case by not organising well enough and allowing environmental damage and violent crime to happen at their events. Even then some teknivals still happen, but this part has become heavily commercialised

    Sounds like whats gonna happen with TENs in this country if you see my posts about Sheffstock being totally unprepared and in the end althougth the fest happened. it looks like there lack of organisation re:toilets&drinking water is gonna screw up any chance of anything happening on that land again. Admitadly i havent spoken to the landowner, but im pretty sure he’s not gonna be happy with all the shit and piss left everywhere… shame really as it could have been a party to prove to people that well organised/thought out ones can actually be good for people/communities etc…

    #1139262
    process
    Participant
    General Lighting wrote:
    in France the ravers there succesfully lobbied for large teknivals, but then destroyed their case by not organising well enough and allowing environmental damage and violent crime to happen at their events. Even then some teknivals still happen, but this part has become heavily commercialised

    Sounds like whats gonna happen with TENs in this country if you see my posts about Sheffstock being totally unprepared and in the end althougth the fest happened. it looks like there lack of organisation re:toilets&drinking water is gonna screw up any chance of anything happening on that land again. Admitadly i havent spoken to the landowner, but im pretty sure he’s not gonna be happy with all the shit and piss left everywhere… shame really as it could have been a party to prove to people that well organised/thought out ones can actually be good for people/communities etc…

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