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  • #1053797
    AvatarMoonie
    Participant

    Anyone else go? I hadn’t been before, was fucking brilliant, loads of music, amazing food, and without a doubt the sexiest place I’ve ever been :crazy: :love:

    #1257403
    Avatarlauteque
    Participant

    I went on Sunday, it was funny, though I can’t help but think that this amount of freedom is not for everyone.
    Cops on a ready but not annoying, it was my first time and I might go back next year.
    We started early to avoid the crowds, and I was relieved we left as soon as the music stopped considering the dodgy looking people hanging around, let’s just say that after moving out the East End I did not expect to see so many gang members in one place 🙂

    A couple of pics for the road :
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    [ATTACH=CONFIG]82648[/ATTACH]

    #1257396
    AvatarGeneral Lighting
    Moderator

    Its really difficult to comment on this without being judged as a racist, I’m glad that lateque commented as I have a lot of respect for the French and their attitudes to outdoor events and its good to hear the perspective of someone from another European nation.

    I am a Londoner and from an ethnic minority myself and my own family grew up in far worse times so I support the overall principle of a multicultural festival in London due to its history – but the harsh reality is that it is only now safer because 7 000 cops were there to nanny the crowds and make a show of strength, and even if we don’t like cops they deserve credit too for their work including surveillance and pre-emptive actions, which span over 20-30 years (Operation Trident was set up in response to rising gang violence after Carnival in the 1980s, this is something metpol themselves don’t like to talk about).

    also whilst I can understand the cops telling outsiders to “not use their phones to navigate or they will get robbed”, I don’t think anyone has the right to take over streets to that extent and rob ordinary people just because they have more than them, thats not fighting racism or the system, thats being scum.

    Can’t help but also think if any of us irrespective of our skin colour or culture, decided to hold an event what led to 7000 cops on the street, 299 arrests, and fuckloads of public money spent in a economic depression, we’d be on our way to jail very quickly rather than being held up as positive champions of multicultural Britain.

    #1257404
    Avatarlauteque
    Participant

    Don’t get me wrong, I can’t really say I usually side with the police, but when I was on the wrong side of the law I still was not a danger to society and people’s safety. Gangs are a different matter when dealing with people who haven’t got much to lose and a lot to gain from violent behaviour.
    I must say though that I didn’t see any fights, but again there were cops almost everywhere.

    If it’d been a teknival I’d have been super pissed to see them, but street parties, at least in France, have a knack of attracting all sorts of not very nice people. I went to the tekno parade in Paris years ago and was attacked by a group of youngsters who tried to mug me (luckily they chose to do that right under the nose of the police who were taking a coffee break very close)

    I don’t want to blame a specific music or crowd, my point is that that kind of event is very difficult to regulate without imposing an iron hand of surveillance.
    I, for myself, was keeping my eyes opened to watch out for my wife, since a couple of blokes probably thought it was free for all…

    Still met nice people and had good drunken chats here and there.

    Oh, and I hope that snack who charged a quid to use the toilets even if you were a customer made bag loads of money !

    EDIT TO ADD :
    didn’t see your last line but yeah I totally agree, and that’s what really pisses me off when here or in France big events causing lots of trouble are held, and then when the same trouble “argument” is used for a small party in the woods where nothing happened.

    #1257409
    AvatarMoonie
    Participant

    Depends what you call dodgy really, there wasn’t anything really stupid going on, and if you’re walking round a lot of London then there are people you should obviously avoid. And nobody in their right mind can possibly complain about the amount the carnival costs two weeks after the Olympics. I was walking around for about an hour and a half with my phone out trying to track down a mate of mine and fuck all happened to me, pretty much everyone I saw there was smiling and fine. Also lauteque, how exactly were you identifying “gang members”?

    #1257405
    Avatarlauteque
    Participant

    People who try hard to look like they belong to a gang ?
    Nah seriously it was more meant as a joke than anything, I wouldn’t want people to think I was pinpointing anyone specific.

    #1257397
    AvatarGeneral Lighting
    Moderator

    I don’t disagree this carnival was way safer than previous years, but that really is only because of metpol and their surveillance/monitoring.

    20 years ago I was living in London myself, SE London which wasn’t the nicest area and no fucking way would I have felt comfortable going to carnival. Not scared, just uncomfortable, which is why I couldn’t be arsed with it back then. Plus I was banned from some of the local businesses there anyway (who threatened to call metpol on me if they ever saw me in certain shops) in circumstances I consider laughable as I am hardly a big scarey rude boy.

    I reckon lateque is about the same age group as me and sinner69 – in our teens there was fuckloads of really heavy political stuff all across Europe which spilled over into various forms of major crime and violence, between cops, youths, racial groups, small business owners, all sorts. I think the streets across Europe are safer now than back then, but that is due to better economic times which are now disappearing and even then it is only achieved at a cost of our freedom with CCTV everywhere and cops/authorities to watch the screens. Now the bad economic times are back again the streets will slowly change unless the surveillance is kept up (and that costs money too).

    #1257406
    Avatarlauteque
    Participant

    There were cops at every crossroads (the visible ones).
    The debate on the relevancy of CCTV and surveillance is probably a little to wide to be discussed on this specific subject, unless we end up off topic ^^

    I must say that sunday was supposed to be kids’ day, which is why we chose to go on that specific day.
    I hadn’t been to an event this size since I was a youngster and at the times we were the scary ones in a way, so obviously we were not worried. But now I have much more to lose in getting involved in senseless violence so I try to avoid it as much as possible.

    Also, seeing people pushing their kids in prams in a crowd where the poor children are at knee level, ready to breathe all the crap in the air the adults are safer from, or toddlers being danced around in front of a sound whose bass even I felt like almost uncomfortable made my skin cringe (dogs and babies should NEVER be exposed to these levels without protection at least…)
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    (am I the only one to think Skeksis ? http://images2.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20101121155357/poohadventures/images/thumb/5/53/SkekSil_and_SkekUng.jpg/254px-SkekSil_and_SkekUng.jpg )

    #1257410
    AvatarMoonie
    Participant

    Ahahah no you’re not!

    I agree that the police being there made a difference, although to be honest, their presence at other big events I’ve attended in London has made little difference, or even encouraged violence before, and I think it’s both to their credit and the people at the carnival’s credit that it didn’t go that way.

    #1257398
    AvatarGeneral Lighting
    Moderator

    @lauteque 492966 wrote:

    There were cops at every crossroads (the visible ones).
    The debate on the relevancy of CCTV and surveillance is probably a little to wide to be discussed on this specific subject, unless we end up off topic ^^

    There is a whole unit of Scotland Yard devoted to studying CCTV footage to monitor gangs as part of Operation Trident.

    I understand that you come from a country where there is a culture of sometimes being over optimistic hiding bad news (I read French newspapers and they don’t even have a crime news section!!!) and that especially in recent years I’ve developed a much more “Northern European” attitude to things and I’ve always had a personal interest in surveillance and counter surveillance (the “liberal” Northern European countries actually have a lot of surveillance too) but my experience of growing up in England is that CCTV and surveillance is what keeps this country from going up in flames without sacrificing our multicultural society or some free speech or having to put thousands of cops with guns on the street – for instance in my large town cops with guns have to be called up specially.

    in this case the CCTV is used to identify and remove people before they cause trouble at the carnival and as such it has worked. UK cops have had over 40 years to practise these techniques due to football hooligans and fights between racial groups (the first CCTV in London was put in during the 1960s).

    #1257399
    AvatarGeneral Lighting
    Moderator

    @lauteque 492963 wrote:

    People who try hard to look like they belong to a gang ?
    Nah seriously it was more meant as a joke than anything, I wouldn’t want people to think I was pinpointing anyone specific.

    you shouldn’t need to feel that on here you have to be frightened to speak out. this is a very “internationalist” site and everyone on here is enlightened enough to realise in the 21st century it is not just one racial group or fans of one music what form a gang.

    at the same time there are gangs what actively target and try to fuck up music events across England – even in my current otherwise relatively peaceful town 100 km from London. they and their bullshit culture has no place on peaceful music scenes

    #1257407
    Avatarlauteque
    Participant

    Fair enough, I just wanted to clarify this to avoid having to defend a point of view that’s not mine.

    And that “gang” problem is the same in France, they usually wait until everyone’s wasted to to their thing.
    (btw I’m dual national French/British)

    #1257400
    AvatarGeneral Lighting
    Moderator

    one way event organisers can make events safer (and is what the committe and feds have been doing for Notting Hill) is to engineer the types of music and crowds so no particular music genre or peer group can totally dominate the crowds.

    that said after 15 years of event organising including research into licensing of events as well as doing unlicensed ones I think that there is a big problem with large crowd behaviour in England and the EU (even including the more disciplined Northern European countries) and that is a difficult thing for any organiser or security operative (whether private or cops) to deal with..

    #1257411
    AvatarMoonie
    Participant

    I dunno man I think this whole thing’s a bit mountains out of molehills, I mean out of the tens of thousands of people there, there were 229 arrests. The stats for the general public on a bank holiday weekend can’t be much better than that anyway. Think about all the people that went, didn’t get anything nicked, didn’t get intimidated or beaten up, didn’t get arrested, danced to some really good music, ate some tasty food and went home again. I never thought I’d see a party on the circle line but that’s about the only way I can describe it last night.

    #1257412
    AvatarMoonie
    Participant

    *299

    #1257401
    AvatarGeneral Lighting
    Moderator

    180 people were arrested by metpol for cycling in the wrong place in London during the olympics – this was in some ways a bit much as they were mostly non violent hippies but they were warned about it – these 299 were arrested for much nastier plans.

    it would be over and above the incident count for a similar Bank holiday weekend in London without the carnival. It might not be a lot but was only achieved with the help of the 7 000 metpol officers as well as other civillian staff in GT (CCTV operations centre) and other public sector workers, all paid for by London’s taxpayers. it is not because London is a nice, friendly multicultural place without those coppers and surveillance to nanny people (same as any other English town but on a larger scale).

    its good it went well but and its a credit to London they managed it especially with a Conservative Government in power and after riots the previous year (in fact that the 2011 events were not banned as a punishment is also a credit to Britain)

    That has still been achieved at the expense of actual blood spilt in previous years. Much of this happened before your were born and some of it even before I was born when the event first started but that shouldn’t be forgotten nor swept under the carpet – nor should risks to the event from modern gang culture.

    Notting Hill Carnival – Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    #1257413
    AvatarMoonie
    Participant

    My point about the Olympics wasn’t the crime, it was the cost. Same as Notting Hill to be honest, the cost of policing it isn’t really an issue as far as I’m concerned, at least it’s something that London’s tax payers get the opportunity to enjoy, I doubt they’ll be getting an invite to an RBS Exec’s yacht any time soon, and they contributed more than a bit to that too. I can’t really comment on what went on before I was born, or even whilst I was growing up, but I do think it’s a worthwhile thing to do even with the cost.

    #1257402
    AvatarGeneral Lighting
    Moderator

    its claimed to bring in a lot of money to London (similarly to the Olympics) but in reality a lot of English born Londoners (as opposed to recent economic migrants) are bitterly divided about its social benefits. I think with both a lot of the perceived profits are as ropey as the big banks figures anyway..

    That said a lot of the original cockneys buggered off to the suburbs 30 years ago (selling their houses to the RBS execs and accountants from Malaysia and other incomers) anyway when the capital got “too multicultural” because metpol actually caved in and let the multicultural groups have what was then a illegal event. Some of the are the sort what spent the weekend calling 999 when they saw a ginger tomcat :laugh_at:

    #1257408
    Avatarlauteque
    Participant

    (ginger tomcats are scary ^^ have you seen that btw ? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uUD9NBSJvqo )

    Another souvenir : lucky these girls didn’t cross the path of the chocolate spreaders !
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