May 24, 2011 at 8:34 pm #1239747JustAnotherDarrenParticipant
sooooooooooooooooooo, labourer for a year, then those 2 years of a levels, study well. get good grades and see where next,
and btw i don’t go raves with friends, just 3 or so close friends, i don’t really tell people. i like it being a more private get away good night! 🙂
I think my gcse’s might need some retakes next year aswell, cause im possibly failing some subjects due to courseowkrs where i wasn’t in a.. well i was fucked off my head 🙂May 24, 2011 at 8:36 pm #1239738cheeseweaselParticipant
from the figures i’ve looked at in the past, grauates do earn more than those who do not go to university. considerably more in certain work, such as medicine, engineering and finance. but you just have to weigh up the pros and cons. you can do evening or part time courses in alot of subjects. i think it’s the opposite way round to what cheeseweasel mentioned, you’re more likely to be stuck in a dead-end boring desk job if you haven’t broadened your horizons and got a degree, which will make you more employable to a broader range of people.
It depends whether or not you have a plan. If you just drop out of school because you can’t be arsed with it anymore and go do a shitty job somewhere, yeh I agree that’s not very sensible and you may well regret it. But some people just aren’t suited to academia and would be far happier in a trade. What’s the point in pushing them into studying? A lot of 16-year-olds may have never even thought of leaving school to get a job – apprenticeships are few and far between nowadays and it seems like school careers advisers are just there to suggest degrees.
And £9000 a year is a lot of money to ‘broaden your horizons’. I don’t think university offers any more in terms of ‘life experience’ than getting a job and working for three years anyway. Some of the most snobbish and closed-minded people I’ve met have been uni students. I speak as someone who’s been there and done that and know loads of people who have come out of uni with a load of debt, couldn’t find a job and feel cheated by the education system. University shouldn’t be for everyone (although it should be available to everyone, but that’s a different matter!). And on another note it makes it difficult to argue the case for abolishing tuition fees when the value of a degree had decreased so much over the last couple of decades due to too many people doing silly subjects.
(Edit: Perhaps ‘silly subjects’ is unfair, it’s usually the people doing them that are silly, not the subjects themselves, like psychology, media studies etc. Btw I work in a university drama dept so I’m probably a massive hypocrite but after two months on the dole I was glad for the work).May 24, 2011 at 8:46 pm #1239731
I know people (albeit a bit older) who have graduated with first class honours (in hard subjects, not “silly” ones), got good jobs and still feel cheated by the system, having missed out on their youth and found themselves still in crap (but well paid) jobs – they are now doing stuff like setting up community farms and solar power projects..
the other elephant in the room is the silly subjects are often the ones what seem most enjoyable.
Even IT stuff like creative web design, video and multimedia still isn’t as valuable in the UK market place today as being able to keep a office network running for most small to medium size businesses outside London and big cities…May 25, 2011 at 10:21 am #1239724Anonymous
@General Lighting 436420 wrote:
It will only be about 5 years by the time your age group graduate from uni.
more like 6-8 for those who go on to do a proper degree, like a PhD (not saying a masters degree isn’t proper). and i am pretty certain that there will a be a slight different in the academic climate by then! or atleast, i should hope so. if you look at it bluntly, unless you really don’t feel that academia is for you, which is perfectly fine, then getting a degree will more than likely get you further unless you’re willing to work exceedingly hard to get to the same place.
but! justanotherdarren isn’t even that far yet and is more concerned with college, so let’s get back to that! 🙂
if you’re failing because of coursework at the moment, i would say that english and history are definitely not the subjects for you.May 25, 2011 at 10:28 am #1239742SpazhazzardParticipant
@General Lighting 436404 wrote:
Maybe its a regional difference but round this way its not seen as lower down the chain doing a trade and practical work than going to uni compared to London.
I’ve hardly used anything I learned at uni (for the two years I was there) even though I studied IT and electronics and still work in an engineering role..
I’m by no means saying that tradesman is “lower”, I’m just saying that there is a difference in the skills required. An engineer is a much more theoretical job with a lot of knowledge required whereas a trade is practical job where you have to be able to use your hands and improvise if necessary. I know a lot of people training to be engineers on my course that are absolutely useless at anything that requires practical skill.May 25, 2011 at 10:43 am #1239732
@harr!et 436484 wrote:
more like 6-8 for those who go on to do a proper degree, like a PhD (not saying a masters degree isn’t proper). and i am pretty certain that there will a be a slight different in the academic climate by then! or atleast, i should hope so.
TBH irrespective of the level of education, whether its post 16 or post graduate, what will happen and is happening is that increasingly, wider society will dictate the needs rather than individuals’ or even families desires, which TBH isn’t much different from the 1980s or previously.
not just the commercial market but genunine social needs – as resource constraints bite harder and the world becomes a smaller and more localised place, there is going to be much more need for a doctor, a vet or a pharmacist, or an electrician or project enginer for a renewable energy system than someone who can design the latest high tech gadget.
already where live I’ve seen loads of young graduates who had dream jobs in IT/tech – basically being paid to play with nice toys at their pace of work rather than “boring” stuff like supporting end users getting their P45’s as the economic depression removes the market demand (the older folk who are often more pragmatic and adaptable are keeping their jobs).
That said it certainly isn’t worth going to uni if you don’t really want to be there, but it is worth getting some kind of post 16 education – and if it isn’t conventional A-levels then its best obtained as day release from a paying job..May 25, 2011 at 10:48 am #1239733
@Spazhazzard 436486 wrote:
I’m by no means saying that tradesman is “lower”, I’m just saying that there is a difference in the skills required. An engineer is a much more theoretical job with a lot of knowledge required whereas a trade is practical job where you have to be able to use your hands and improvise if necessary. I know a lot of people training to be engineers on my course that are absolutely useless at anything that requires practical skill.
In the UK there is no standard definition of engineer, and it crosses over with the definition of skilled tradesmen/craftsmen. Certainly as a project engineer for the broadcast industry the work was a lot more hands on than theoretical. large companies which do stuff like electrics, plumbing and structured cabling now market themselves as “engineering services” rather than just plumbers, electricians or traditional trade titles.
Although for obvious reasons of self-preservation and developing potential markets, Universities are trying to move to the European definition which is more like what you say and demands having a degree (in some EU nations its illegal to call yourself an engineer without the right qualifications).May 25, 2011 at 12:02 pm #1239743SpazhazzardParticipant
I don’t mean to be demeaning but there is a difference between tradesman and engineer and anyone who is an engineer will agree. A tradesman (or technician) in most cases doesn’t actually understand the underlying principles of WHY (not how, there is a difference) the things they work on operate whereas an engineer does. This case of “everyone’s an engineer” has arisen from the supposed idea that doing a trade gives you socially less standing than an engineer and so people who do trades have tried to aggrandise themselves by saying they are engineers when they have neither the training or understand to do so. This may just be a superiority complex for people who are engineers but when you’ve trained for 3/4 years at uni and spent 3 years working to get accreditation from your respective organisation I think that you have a right to be picky about who is known as an engineer.
This is evidenced by in some places people who work as binmen are calling themselves “waste disposal engineers”, which to be honest is a joke. The vast majority of car mechanics who say they’re engineers don’t know the principles of the Carnot or Diesel cycles for example.
I’m not trying to say that binmen are worth less, I’m not, they perform an essential function and to be honest I don’t think they really get paid enough for handling people’s waste all day every day.
However this is going off topic, if you want to continue this GL I suggest by PM or something, because we’re taking this thread a bit too far from where it started I think.May 25, 2011 at 12:30 pm #1239734
The discussion is still on topic as this perception of image is clearly affecting younger peoples life choices and has been for some time – both young folk and their families are image concious its precisely why in England a lot of young people who could do much better in trade/technical jobs force themselves into uni/academic work and then end up being disillusioned or dropping out. its also why we lack skilled tradespeople / technicians and often have to get them from foreign lands.
I agree the strict definition of the term engineer does get overused, but there are certain trades (particularly gas work) where the workers need to do intense courses of study spanning multiple years – and put in as much work as any uni course (in fact more as they need to refresh the qualifications) as well as running a business – and quite rightly to due to the safety critical nature, and I wouldn’t begrudge these workers the title of engineer – as for instance ACS (the Gas Safe qualifications) do teach the basic principles of combustion and the science involved)
I wouldn’t call a binman a waste disposal engineer – but someone who commisions and maintains a system to separate recyclables and/or obtain useful byproducts from them would be deserving of that title.
somewhat ironically the dude who installed a new boiler in my house is a actually a former aviation engineer, used to work on helicopters!
universities do not have the power in this country to dictate laws and who can use the title “engineer” – nor do we have the public sector cash to enforce such a change – (in the Euro countries where they are stricter, the cost of doing business and accreditation goes up!) so it is up to the customers to exercise due diligence with who they give their business to- which for safety critical things like planes or boilers people do anyway.
This due diligence applies to college and uni as well – unless your parents are really rich its now not worth spending £27 000 or more unless you can make back that money in salaries quickly enough and that means a guaranteed long term career, not sporadic short term contracts here and there…May 25, 2011 at 11:55 pm #1239739Dafuq UsainParticipant
if your considering a trade go for something like refrigeration and airconditioning, someone with an acadamic ability can really do well at it and ya can do city and guilds courses to get you into the more specialised areas of it and even into the design end of it, and its a trade thats always in demand in america, the middle east, australia etc where theres serious money to be made at it
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