Forums Music Is this a good idea?

Viewing 25 posts - 1 through 25 (of 48 total)
  • Author
    Posts
  • #1037274
    fanfairy
    Participant

      Hi all,

      Something I said the other day got me thinking… Most of the music channels on Satellite TV are broadcasting nothing but mainstream pop and hip hop etc.

      Now at the risk of giving away a good idea, do you think that an underground dance music channel on satellite TV would work?

      You’d have to make it multi-genre I guess, incorporating everything from Deep House to Psy Trance and anything in between. The idea would be to showcase underground bands and DJ’s, and bringing the best in underground music to da people…:bounce_o:

      Does anyone else think it’s a good idea? I think I’m going to start researching the costs and see if it’s workable.

      What ideas would anyone else have for such a channel?

      PLUR

      #1068758
      DJ FATTMAN
      Participant

        i always thought it would good to hear some underground tunage on the music channels the only prob is, as soon as the underground stuff gets broadcasted then its no longer underground and will move over to the commercial side. I know loads of tunes which i had on promos for a year which were awesome then a year l8er released into the charts and get over played and ruined by the cheese massive.

        #1068761
        Acidfairy
        Participant
          DJ FATTMAN wrote:
          i always thought it would good to hear some underground tunage on the music channels the only prob is, as soon as the underground stuff gets broadcasted then its no longer underground and will move over to the commercial side. I know loads of tunes which i had on promos for a year which were awesome then a year l8er released into the charts and get over played and ruined by the cheese massive.

          I totally agree with you it would be good to hear more of it but again it’ll then become commercialised and that’s the last thing I think alot of us want..

          #1068745
          Techno Viking
          Participant
            DJ FATTMAN wrote:
            i always thought it would good to hear some underground tunage on the music channels the only prob is, as soon as the underground stuff gets broadcasted then its no longer underground and will move over to the commercial side. I know loads of tunes which i had on promos for a year which were awesome then a year l8er released into the charts and get over played and ruined by the cheese massive.

            And you idea is? :))

            hugh

            #1068773
            titch
            Participant

              Sounds like a good idea, I would have thought it would cost a lot of money to run though.

              It won’t make underground music commercial (cheese), just because alot of people listen to a type of music that doesn’t change it, make it any different and it shouldn’t damage its reputation in anyway. If its good its good, so let as many people as possible experience it !! If something ends up in the charts or liked by non underground people etc it can still be good. Prodigy etc …..

              If a track is taken by the cheese crew and ruined as said above, well from my past experience those tracks are not that good to begin with, well when you look back that seems the case IMO.

              #1068766
              PaulM
              Participant

                Do the underground artists have videos to go with the tunes. prob not all of them. could be tricky making it good t.v.

                It would b great if u prove me wrong and pull this off! GooD Luck!
                Hope u make room 4 some DnB aswell:wink: 😉

                #1068748
                General Lighting
                Moderator

                  its a very good idea which a few people have already tried – there is (or was?) the rapture channel in Norwich and Channel U in London (low budget grime station)

                  many urban music tracks (D&B, breaks) do have videos (which don’t often get seen!) as do most grime and eski cuts – there is a culture of making DVDs on the grime scene but they are very low budget films which are mostly full of sex and violence, glorified happy slapping TBH

                  tracks without videos could be played but visuals, chatroom style scrolling messages could be shown in their place or TBH any video footage that can use “wild” sound (i.e sound not frame-synchronised to the footage)

                  The main problem is the costs of keeping the channel running.

                  I used to be a project engineer for the TV industry and worked for a firm which equipped the BBC, Teddington Studios, all the Granada (ITV) studios; in 2001 I installed an entire studio for a Turkish TV channel in Germany which is a good example of a small channel setup.

                  the initial capital investment for production and TX equipment is far less than it used to be ; but you still will need specialised stuff like broadcast quality VTRs (probably miniDV/DVcam) and maybe even BetaSP (although its an old format now) as videos for broadcast will still be delivered on tape.

                  In the TX/Playout area you need one bank of computers, automatic signal routing equipment and device control to put your programmes on air, a GPS receiver or other accurate source of timecode data such as MSF.

                  and another set of resources for acquisition (camera, microphones) and computers for the edit suites – but as most of your produced material will be 3-5 minutes long it can be edited and prepared on pretty normal PCs! Any PC over PIII 850MHZ with 256MB of RAM can edit miniDV digital video – you don’t even need the top of the range kit of today!

                  in 1996 one local cable channel (which went bust) spent about €100,000 on equipment initially; nowdays I reckon you could just about do it for €10,000 and €25,000 would buy a very nice setup including some live studio kit

                  but where the problems set in are the overheads…

                  there’s the premises rental, staff costs etc (if you want a good channel you need to pay at least some people a living wage, the TV industry is fucked because it exploits naive kids looking for a bit of glamour and makes them work for nothing)

                  to get on the air you need to rent a 34MB/s data circuit from your playout area to your TX centre (where your broadcast goes into the cable or satellite network) (anything less than this and your picture will look like shit; the main networks use 270MB/s circuits!) – but BT don’t’ do these things cheaply and you have to have your playout area fairly near a telephone exchange

                  you have to pay the people at Arqiva (formerly ntl broadcast), BT or Sky to switch your circuit at the other end and rent time/space on a spare freeview channel or Sky transponder.

                  This is assuming you are in the UK though, in Eire it may be easier to get space on another network…

                  another issue is you would need a license to be a TV station in each country you are seen in

                  In Britain the station needs to be registed with Ofcom or you are technically a pirate station and can be closed down – in Eire it would be the DCMNR (Department of Communications, Marine and Natural Resources) – thats a few more hundred euros in fees – and potential delays to the project as you are held back by bureaucrats’ timescales

                  Also everything you TX has to be recorded and logged for inspection by these men in suits and any whinging member of the public can trigger an investigation of your content (you need to spend more money on logging equipment and admin staff)

                  To pay for these overheads you need advertising and thats where most stations fall over because there are so many advertising outlets that the prices of airtime and webspace are way cheaper than they used to be – there is loads of competition – you need to have a good sales team and that isnt cheap either..

                  but then again if those grime stations can do it then go for it – feel free to send me a PM if you want any more detailed advice! (would you be setting up in the UK or Eire, or both?)

                  #1068774
                  fanfairy
                  Participant

                    My god GL, thanks for such a detailed reply. I suppose I’d want the channel to go Europe-wide eventually, but for now UK and Eire would be OK. As there’s only a population of 4 million in Eire there wouldn’t be enough people watching to attract advertisers to make it viable. The underground music scene is still very much in its infancy here – two years ago you couldn’t get a proper Psy-trance gig for love nor money, that’s how young it is.

                    As to peeps who say “get underground music on TV and it will go all commercial”, well maybe, but there is ALWAYS more wonderful underground music to source from all around the world. What I want to achieve is to show people that ther IS an alternative to the shite they are showing on MTV Dance (now THAT channel is just a JOKE).:laugh_at:

                    The idea is that those who want to sell out can do just that (and good luck to them) – there are always millions more to take their place. Shortage of good underground material will never be a problem. In theory you’d never even have to play the same track twice.

                    Anyway since when did good music suddenly become bad music just because more people are listening to it? That just doesn’t make sense.:crazy_fre I still love Underworld and The Prodigy even though they’ve hit the bigtime (Got Long Train playin in the background at the moment!)

                    If I won the Lotto I’d go for it big time. I suppose I’m hoping someone will rob the idea and do it so that I don’t have to!

                    PLUR

                    #1068749
                    General Lighting
                    Moderator
                      fanfairy wrote:
                      If I won the Lotto I’d go for it big time. I suppose I’m hoping someone will rob the idea and do it so that I don’t have to!

                      PLUR

                      thing is people have tried

                      but the channels have folded because of the “big money” ethos of conventional media and the overhead costs. As I mentioned the actual equipment cost isn’t the problem (its getting cheaper and cheaper!), but the circuit rentals from the telcos and the people with control to the satellites and transmitters – they all want their cut… and the cost of dealing with multiple sorts of Eurocrats whom you must talk to or they will take you off air.

                      The big companies themselves are having trouble keeping some channels on air! Here in England the BBC is relocating to Manchester and commercial ITV channels went down from 16 companies to just one with loads of jobs lost (but a lot of second hand equipment some of it quite new on the market)

                      however there are supposed to be new changes to make smaller channels easier to start up across the EU – if you know any record company types or other philanthropists (who won’t keep interfering with content) its still worth pursuing; its technically easier than ever to do this than before; and your production base will also be equipped to provide audio programming (radio stations) and web content as well so adverts can be sold in more than one place…

                      on the subjects of “sell outs”, worth remembering that in the early 90s a lot of cash gained from the more “commercial” rave tunes was re-invested in studios for the use of more underground artists..

                      #1068767
                      Anonymous

                        teh only half decent channel in the world seems to be http://www.extreme.com/

                        they have a good mix of commercial, highgrade skate vids from around the world, and low-budget back-yard skate, music and lifestyle vids to boot. they could do with more home-grown gubbins, but they have to make ends meet and attract advertiseing and sponsors. they must do alright, i think they have a chain of shops (there’s a massive one in brighton anyway).

                        keep meaning to do something more than think about it, but i recon if they could be persuaded to make a sister channel of music and culture, that would be the best answer to the current problem of shit tv.

                        #1068750
                        General Lighting
                        Moderator
                          USE wrote:
                          teh only half decent channel in the world seems to be http://www.extreme.com/

                          they have a good mix of commercial, highgrade skate vids from around the world, and low-budget back-yard skate, music and lifestyle vids to boot. they could do with more home-grown gubbins, but they have to make ends meet and attract advertiseing and sponsors. they must do alright, i think they have a chain of shops (there’s a massive one in brighton anyway).

                          keep meaning to do something more than think about it, but i recon if they could be persuaded to make a sister channel of music and culture, that would be the best answer to the current problem of shit tv.

                          extreme is a good example; but although based in the UK their playout/TX is in the Netherlands. ISTR investigating how they did it a couple years back and found that the Netherlands place was originally formed from a pirate broadcaster as the NL authorities (in the 1980s?) decided to license broadcasters on an “anyone can do it basis provided they complied with reasonable technical standards to prevent interference or danger”

                          The problem with Britain is perhaps simply this – the “old guard” of media executives and personalities do not want to let go (look at all the ancient presenters who seem to be coming back these days!).

                          They would rather pilot the ship on to the rocks than let a fresh new crew take over.

                          #1068775
                          fanfairy
                          Participant
                            General Lighting wrote:
                            on the subjects of “sell outs”, worth remembering that in the early 90s a lot of cash gained from the more “commercial” rave tunes was re-invested in studios for the use of more underground artists..

                            Re-investment in the underground music scene surely doesn’t constitute a “sell out”. My understanding of a sellout is an underground act that make it big, sign their contract and then become record industry puppets, churning out nothing more than “hard pop”….

                            #1068776
                            20-DAV-05
                            Participant

                              awryt all am wonderin wot all of u’s experienced folk of wot i myt be thinkin of buyin ano it is quite shit lol but the rest of it is dear think about gettin it with my buffday money (sm day as acidfairy :D) so heres the link ppl.. http://www.rs100.co.uk/product_info.php?cPath=41_82&products_id=372

                              theres a shop in glasgow no doubt u’s awredi ken tht but anyway 🙂

                              catch yees

                              #1068751
                              General Lighting
                              Moderator

                                A mate of mine has a similar USB controller to the one you have posted there and it seems like good kit for the price. Not sure if it is exactly the same model but had very similar features…

                                #1068777
                                20-DAV-05
                                Participant

                                  kl cheers m8 🙂

                                  #1068762
                                  Acidfairy
                                  Participant

                                    Looks good think my mates shop sells them as well i’ll ask him for ya an let u know…:bigsmile:

                                    #1068778
                                    20-DAV-05
                                    Participant

                                      kl cheera fairy is it the RS-100 shop he’s at cause dats where am plannin on goin the one in glasgow 🙂 a wud imagine the folk in there r party goers lyk 🙂

                                      #1068740
                                      Anonymous

                                        Concerning your idea- there is definately a market for it…

                                        I’m currently looking for people who would like to be interviewed or filmed about free parties….? Let me know asap, filming starts in two weeks time!

                                        #1068759
                                        Urk
                                        Participant

                                          I think it’s a great idea.

                                          By way of getting *something* off the ground, getting organised and stuff, has anyone ( and I’m looking at you GL ) looked into broadcasting over the web using the NSV format ( or something similar ) ?
                                          http://www.nullsoft.com/nsv/

                                          Examples of it running can be seen in winamp ( media library->winamp / shoutcast TV , depending on what version you use )

                                          The setup and running costs would be *much* cheaper, no need for a licence ! and if all goes well, could be useful to be able to *prove* that you can do that sort of thing.

                                          Rob

                                          #1068779
                                          20-DAV-05
                                          Participant

                                            av got ma synth installed in ma comp in shit but it aint makin any noises aaaaahhhhhhh ..kin anywan help mi plz lol

                                            #1068760
                                            rob
                                            Participant

                                              good idea to use all the media channels. the dance scene has always been evolving to advance technology for pleasure….

                                              i would worry about the hold that sponsors and donors have over content most of all. Especially it becomes increasingly difficult to resist them when they try to push their agenda when the faithful have put so much of their lives and energy into a project for previously sound/idealistic reasons.

                                              Just look at many of the previous great underground/minority dance music scenes/genres that have turned to commercialisation – usually starting as a ‘blood sweat and tears’ affairs with a strong identity, and ending up as someones income. Once that happens it becomes difficult to have the energy to resist wanting to get good at the commercial side; advertising, sales and promotions speak, mass media and marketing, after all thats why these things exist: to make money, feed the family and the bank account.
                                              Then someone comes and puts the hard sell and offers more of the above for something that doesnt fit the original plan or feel the same. Before long the whole thing is totally misshaped and people think its a sell out. Which technically it is.

                                              Maybe we should enjoy our underground music scenes here as we have the social and economic environment to indulge in what is essentially a totally frivolous past-time and get less hung up about whats ‘underground’ or not? If you note only until recently did less economically developed places have a desire or inclination to have such a cultural phenomenon. Its the preserve of those with enough economic security to invest time into it and still feel they may eat at the end of the day.

                                              lets have the full broadcast and if a tunes good its good and if its pop then call it so. even if it feels a bit wrong, good luck mate!

                                              #1068747
                                              JE5
                                              Participant

                                                I remember seeing Acid Junkies and all sorts of other techno and trance stuff on MTV about 12 years ago, those were the days!

                                                #1068768
                                                Anonymous

                                                  ive heard whispers that level-1 who host partyvibe radio are looking into video streming as well. i suggested doing my vj sets to acompany the radio, but theres no reason why telly couldn be broadcast the same way.

                                                  as gl was sayign some of the major costs of telly are teh telecommincation network costs, and (as skype has proved with phones) there are ways round that. my half bro is in tel-coms, and he was saying a mate of his at the office does the streaming for odeon cinema trailers online. i’m trying to get a meeting sorted for the next month or so, as whatever info i can get out of him would be invaluable. the trouble is i know fuck all about streaming tech, so i dont even know what to ask him! if i could sort it out, you interested gl?

                                                  #1068752
                                                  General Lighting
                                                  Moderator

                                                    USE – the main thing to find out is the potential costs of the data circuits digital video and streaming media is a few years old now and mature technology so sorting out the technical side isn’t the problem, its getting the money and/or working out how much is needed.

                                                    video needs more robust and faster data circuits and more bandwidth than ADSL or an NTL domestic feed – this is expensive as you need more data upstream (the data going out of your studio location) broadband connections have a fast downstream connection but a slower upstream connection

                                                    and if you are trying to VJ to an audio feed coming in from elsewhere the audio and video feeds (subject to encoding delay) will need to be combined and re-encoded to keep synchronisation. this will be an “interesting exercise/potential challenge” (anyone like SdZ or site got ideas on how this would be achieved?)

                                                    #1068769
                                                    Anonymous
                                                      General Lighting wrote:
                                                      if you are trying to VJ to an audio feed coming in from elsewhere the audio and video feeds (subject to encoding delay) will need to be combined and re-encoded to keep synchronisation. this will be an “interesting exercise/potential challenge” (anyone like SdZ or site got ideas on how this would be achieved?)

                                                      i think level-1 are already on it to an extent, i guess im best off staying out of this as it goes over my head somewhat. i just thought that odeon bloke might be a good link, i guess i’ll see what SdZ says and get him to pass on the message.

                                                      i spose the obvious but limiting way round the synch problem with video and audio is to have them broadcast from the same spot, so i could vj round a mates house while he’s mixing and send it off complete. but i spose thats just avoiding the issue.

                                                    Viewing 25 posts - 1 through 25 (of 48 total)
                                                    • You must be logged in to reply to this topic.

                                                    Forums Music Is this a good idea?