Forums Music Sound Equipment Sonifex DHY-02 ???

This topic contains 29 replies, has 3 voices, and was last updated by Avatar DaftFader May 31, 2015 at 11:18 pm.

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  • #1058221
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    DaftFader
    Participant

    I’m trying to work out if I have a ringing detector and/or an euro-card installed on it.

    Any halp plz!!! 😥

    [ATTACH=CONFIG]86596[/ATTACH][ATTACH=CONFIG]86597[/ATTACH]

    #1278917

    What are the rest of the letters after DHY-02? I’ve managed to download the manual and those identify which kind it is.

    its a pity I’m not closer as I’ve got an entire phone exchange in my house to test things like that, although I only have analogue extensions or IP-phones rather than Euro-ISDN (and am building a manual switching system recreation complete with a old style magneto ringing generator!)

    From just looking at it appears to be a dual analogue model, as the two linecords have BT plugs on the end.

    Euro-ISDN circuits are normally presented on an RJ45 socket marked with a phone company logo (some countries will use the existing phone wiring and sockets, or for critical circuits sometimes they are hard wired to the old style block terminal with exposed bare metal (which can be a source of angst and pain if they are fed with “double battery” (-96 to -120 V DC) (not only are they difficult to configure, you can get an unpleasant shock at all times rather than just when the phone is ringing). The telephone company or anyone who wires extension circuits is supposed to put a lightning flash warning sticker and a marker on any wires carrying this sort of voltage; this is not always done.

    That is a particularly good hybrid, way better than the ones in our community radio station. Those let through the rough ringing signal into the audio as well as a harsh noise when the circuit is seized (neither of which are good for the monitor LS or the ears of those wearing cans!)

    The lack of a ringing detector (it works like an answering machine) isn’t a disaster for radio station use as most of them already have a bright lamp triggered by ringing voltage put up in the studio.

    Also, automatically seizing a phone line and not correctly answering it by a human or recorded message eventually gets folk in trouble with the Communications Ministry (as it could be costing the person at the other end money) so that feature isn’t as valuable unless you’ve got some extra call distribution equipment to connect it to, and these days its all done within the internal phone exchange rather than at a telephone hybrid….

    #1278933
    Avatar
    DaftFader
    Participant

    Unfortunately they all have the same lettering on them “HY-02-Digital” afaik, I also downloaded the manual, to no avail. I Google’d it and all the different versions I’ve seen have the exact same markings! O.o

    It is the dual version, I’ve worked out that much, I’m also assuming it’s not the euro chip version due to the fact it was from a UK install (I’m assuming the Euro card is for connection to European telephone sockets). The presents or absence of a ringing detector is what I’m really not sure about though.

    I’m not sure how much of a difference this would make for the asking price, even if it’s not that much, I’d like to give a full description of it, not only to help out the buyer, but also possibly increase my chance of getting a sale, as someone might specifically be looking for one with a ringing detector, but may be turned off if I can’t confirm it has one or not (or visaversa possibly).

    #1278934
    Avatar
    DaftFader
    Participant

    I’ve just put one of these up for sale as well!

    Sonifex RB-DS2 Stereo Delay Synchroniser and Time-Zone Delay

    Seems ridiculously priced for what it does imo (more then £1000 new!), but I guess it’s all about accuracy and versatility (and sound quality ofc) …

    Considering I bought an analog delay unit of ebay for £50 :laugh_at:. Although mine only does a few ms up to a second or two of delay, and has no timezone function built in lol. (I jest ofc)

    #1278918

    @daftfader 702238 wrote:

    It is the dual version, I’ve worked out that much, I’m also assuming it’s not the euro chip version due to the fact it was from a UK install (I’m assuming the Euro card is for connection to European telephone sockets).

    it is for Euro-ISDN rather than analogue circuits, but until recently it was only the wires and the signalling voltages that were standard; British Telecom, France Télécom, and Deutsche (Bundespost) Telekom all used slightly different signalling protocols (the Germans invented it but UK and FR in the 1980s were still fighting the war in their heads so didn’t want to directly copy everything DBP invented). then every European nation privatised the PTT so they ended up with all 3 versions in different areas of the country (in the 21st century ETSI belatedly standardised the signalling across EU. It still is a bear to set up; if there is the slightest error all the calls are knocked back with the 3 rising tones and/or a signal code number or ”CFN” which means ”confusion! the telephone exchange is confused”

    It is like setting up SIP trunks using a 1980s computer and user interface and in anywhere further away from the Telephone Exchange 120V on the cable to give you a good strong shock. The only advantage of it for broadcasting is that its a guaranteed bandwidth circuit and in some countries the audio bandwidth for a single phone call can be a whole 7.5 KHz – but its complexity and BT’s excessively high pricing means it never got widely used outside the BBC and some independent media production companies, and in somewhere like a bank any ISDN circuits would be (and often still are) more likely to be used for real time encrypted transaction processing well away from the less reliable and secure Internet. It was ironically used for the first Internet connections in big towns, only to be quickly superseded by ADSL.

    The Germans however wired ISDN to all businesses most homes in more built up areas (Telekom was nationalised until the end of the 1990s) just after they’d invented it – they weren’t then so stupid as to invent something useful with taxpayers money and then wait years for ”market forces” to make it ”affordable”, and Frau Merkel was then still the other side of the Wall.

    DBP_1988_1368_ISDN.jpg

    a hybrid like that is less useful anyway with a ringing detector or ISDN unless its at somewhere like an interview room in a small BBC local radio studio which is used to connect automatically to London without needing anyone with any engineering skill to sit there with the producer and guest. Elsewhere in Europe folk use ”contribution units” which do the same as one or both channel of the hybrid but have a built in mixer / talkback circuit or can seize two circuits, giving a 15 Khz bandwidth usable for FM broadcast.

    these also have useful things like a keypad for dialling the circuit number and displays for caller ID, signalling config. there is one in the pic below from Radio Maria NL (top RHS above the radio mic RX and small production mixer, being used for an outside broadcast at a local church.) I am not sure what make it is (looks like an EELA but theirs aren’t currently made in silver cases); I suspect it also works on analogue lines unless every Catholic Church in NL in wired up for ISDN. The dude with the Euromoustache standing in the pulpit setting up a radio mic looks like a maths teacher; this is the sort of thing a Catholic teacher would do for a hobby. Catholics are not anti science and technology; especialy when it involves long hours dealiing with lots of numbers and solving problems, causes Angst when it doesn’t work well and can give people a strong (but not normally dangerous) electric shock. So the church probably does have ISDN.

    general-lighting-albums-alex-s-random-techie-stuff-picture86339-twee-jaar-radio-maria-de.jpg

    #1278935
    Avatar
    DaftFader
    Participant

    Ah nice thanks for the info, that settles a lot. I’ll just put it up for sale as is, and be done with it.

    On another note, not sure if you’ve seen Breaking Bad (I’d suggest you stream it if not!) but the “eurotash” guy looks like walter white before he geos mental and starts killing everyone to make his meth empire bigger (who coincidentally, was previously a chemistry teacher in the story).

    #1278919

    that (and still having to deal with ISDN) TBH is most likely why many of the Dutch are still religious in spite of their perceived liberal tolerant attitudes. BTW most of the music on RMNL aimed at my age group sounds like Britpop (or the same sung in Dutch) and for the younger generation it sounds like Hardwell. This is IMO no coincidence. 😉

    #1278920

    @daftfader 702239 wrote:

    I’ve just put one of these up for sale as well!

    Sonifex RB-DS2 Stereo Delay Synchroniser and Time-Zone Delay

    Seems ridiculously priced for what it does imo (more then £1000 new!), but I guess it’s all about accuracy and versatility (and sound quality ofc) …

    Considering I bought an analog delay unit of ebay for £50 :laugh_at:. Although mine only does a few ms up to a second or two of delay, and has no timezone function built in lol. (I jest ofc)

    these are widely used in both radio and TV partly to offset the effects of lag and time skew when contributors are in foreign lands on satellite or IP-circuits, (otherwise the time can actually appear to go backwards even on a circuit to Belgium, I’ve heard that on an online station) and are widely used locally to delay a live broadcast with public contributors by a few seconds to keep out “analogue trolls” who would swear on the phone ins.

    £1000 is peanuts compared to a fine from the Communications Ministry for letting strong language go to TX before your countries watershed especially at times when many kids may be listening or watching.

    Not sure if you’re old enough to remember Ray Cokes on MTV, and his show which had a lot of swearing and adult stuff in it, and usually went to TX at 23:30 UK civil time (thus well after midnight for the more religious European nations).

    At first glance was not unlike the sort of kids/youth show we once had on Saturday mornings on most channels; they would usually TX early AM saturday.

    When playout was still at the old TVAM building (now knocked in and the site used for offices), one intern at MTV Europe (probably English) got their times mixed up and put a 11:30 (AM) TX barcode on the tape. In those days the tapes went into a big rack and a Japanese robot system automatically picked them out from the barcode, inserted them into the Betacam SP VCR, cued them up and started the TX, and there are less tech ops (sometimes none) at weekends.

    By the time anyone there had noticed; the show was already on air, complete with all the language; loads of middle class London parents jammed Ofcoms switchboard; and MTV got fined about €138 000 by Ofcom. It wasn’t long after that TVAM studios were cleared out,all the British staff laid off and playout shifted to Poland (where it is most likely 2 people and a robot system). At least Ofcom did use the €138 000 to fund the community radio stations (which appeared soon afterwards).

    #1278936
    Avatar
    DaftFader
    Participant

    OK I tried to test this out, but it’s not tapping into the line when I press the button that should make it do that. The phone is working as normal when going through it, it’s just not splitting the line to the audio out. It’s a talktalk line with a BT converter in the socket, would this be the problem do you think? I was also doing it from an internal extension and not an outside line, what afaik should work just the same.

    #1278921

    by “internal extension” do you mean a telephone socket wired in parallel with the main one for the building, or an extension connected to a PABX (where you would normally have to dial “9” for an outside call?)

    Also do you have a multimeter, an “inserter 2A” (the tool used for connecting to telephone sockets) and some spare telephone wire (or cat5/6 solid cable?)

    Unfortunately not only does this device try to be “smart” it uses a lot of current from the phone line ( a whole 40 mA ) which is strong by todays standards; some newer telephone circuits do not like kit like this and might not let it seize the line or would present a lower voltage than it expects for a “seize” condition (I would have to check the ETSI standard but its 900+ pages long); and there are a shit ton of internal options on the line cards.

    PM me a current email address and I’ll send you the manual…

    #1278922

    PS: should have also mentioned a digital multimeter is preferable to an analogue one as telephone lines can contain DC at either polarity and/or AC at any random time…

    #1278937
    Avatar
    DaftFader
    Participant

    The last multimeter I had was one I made at college, and it never fully worked. xD

    We do have a ton of spare cat 5 and 6 cables though I think.

    #1278938
    Avatar
    DaftFader
    Participant

    Oh and by extension, I mean like if it was connected to an outside line you’d have to dial 9 to get out. AFAIK it’s just an internal system for calling different parts of the building, but run through the main building phone network. We have a separate set of phones for calling outside lines.

    #1278923

    @daftfader 702309 wrote:

    Oh and by extension, I mean like if it was connected to an outside line you’d have to dial 9 to get out. AFAIK it’s just an internal system for calling different parts of the building, but run through the main building phone network.

    you can also get PABX extensions which have level 9 barred (preventing them making outside calls) – with others on the same system being permitted to do so; Dialling 9 on many of them would just return an unobtainable tone; to confuse matters further there are Centrex lines which do go to the Telephone Exchange (either BT or NTL/VM) but work as both internal and external lines.

    The telephone network was the worlds most complex device after the original pipe organ (which Christians, Jews, Muslims and many other faiths still often use) and adding computers to it makes everything yet more complex.

    Telephone engineers the world over are taught:

    • always assume a circuit is defective and/or misconnected at the other end until you have definitely proven otherwise
    • a copper pair of telephone wires might be energised to any random voltage including full mains (due to a wiring fault); although this is thankfully uncommon in Europe
    • signalling voltages, protocols and timings of these vary not just between countries but between regions of them (its not uncommon to order 3 “identical” circuits from BT and get different signalling)
    • the telephone company very often screws things up (even if you work for it)
    • don’t strip the telephone wires with your teeth nor hold on to them with bare hands

    the “telephone line” you are connecting the hybrid to might be the other end of a VOIP adapter; these often only have -24V battery and often cannot supply more than about 25mA which is plenty enough for a modern telephone with good wiring but a device like that the other end of ropey cable like CCA (copper covered aluminium) or CCS (copper covered steel) might not work.

    This is why many telecoms engineers turn to religion (instead of or as well as cigarettes, pipes, booze and whatever other stuff the law or their faith permits) and any Frenchman who had to connect any device to France Télécom would often be reduced to tears (I can’t blame them TBH as analogue circuits had 5 different types and some of them were also at 96-120 V DC.

    #1278924

    were it not for work pressures and stuff I have to do at home added to the exorbitant cost of trains I would get the train to London and try and help you set this up…

    @daftfader 702302 wrote:

    OK I tried to test this out, but it’s not tapping into the line when I press the button that should make it do that. The phone is working as normal when going through it, it’s just not splitting the line to the audio out. It’s a talktalk line with a BT converter in the socket, would this be the problem do you think?

    Only just noticed this. What is this “BT converter”, and what is at the other end of it? if the socket it plugs into is an RJ11 (USA telephone socket; like an RJ45 network socket but smaller) its use in the UK normally an indication that the other end of the wire goes to a PABX of some sort or a VOIP ATA (analogue terminal adaptor) rather than directly to an NTTP (the main telephone socket).

    If it has a BT socket for the phone to plug into and a BT plug at the other end to get “cheap calls from Talk Talk” (which would be an odd thing to connect to an internal phone system) it is a device that dials a code before the main phone number; and may have been left connected by mistake.

    Some variants of these devices are popular with chaps who collect and restore the old style “small” PABX with relays, selectors etc (it will fill up an entire large shed) to interface “modern” tone dialling phones to the old equipment. There is one lad about your age who lives in London, although the other side of the river, who might be able to make use of it..

    #1278939
    Avatar
    DaftFader
    Participant

    @General Lighting 702352 wrote:

    were it not for work pressures and stuff I have to do at home added to the exorbitant cost of trains I would get the train to London and try and help you set this up…

    Only just noticed this. What is this “BT converter”, and what is at the other end of it? if the socket it plugs into is an RJ11 (USA telephone socket; like an RJ45 network socket but smaller) its use in the UK normally an indication that the other end of the wire goes to a PABX of some sort or a VOIP ATA (analogue terminal adaptor) rather than directly to an NTTP (the main telephone socket).

    If it has a BT socket for the phone to plug into and a BT plug at the other end to get “cheap calls from Talk Talk” (which would be an odd thing to connect to an internal phone system) it is a device that dials a code before the main phone number; and may have been left connected by mistake.

    Some variants of these devices are popular with chaps who collect and restore the old style “small” PABX with relays, selectors etc (it will fill up an entire large shed) to interface “modern” tone dialling phones to the old equipment. There is one lad about your age who lives in London, although the other side of the river, who might be able to make use of it..

    As far as I can work out it’s just to change the size of the plug from the BT standard to the smaller one.

    #1278925

    hmm – that does seem like it is a PABX extension, possibly for a small Japanese PABX which are still widely used but were more often connected to the unique system phones the manufacturer also sold. The other two connections on the RJ11 socket (pair 2) often carry special data signals that make the display on a systemphone work.

    They normally do work with “modern” telephones (i.e anything used in UK after 1990) but that hybrid was designed to work like a 1970s era telephone.

    Are you able to try out the hybrid on a circuit used for something like a fax machine or similar that would definitely be connected directly to an analogue telephone circuit? test it first by calling your mobile – or if its an Openreach circuit dialling 17070 will result in a message “this circuit is defined as 020 7946 0100” (with the number being replaced by whatever number the circuit has), not sure what VM use for a test number these days (or if they even have one)

    #1278931
    Avatar
    cheeseweasel
    Participant

    Funnily enough I was using the newer model of this yesterday, the HY03 (they are common in corporate-AV-world for speakers giving presentations over the phone from America etc). Afraid I don’t know as much about them as I should, as they generally ‘just work’ when you plug it into an appropriate phone socket (for me, it’s usually an ethernet line patched into the venue/company’s phone system and converted to RJ11 for connection to the hybrid). Never really had to fuck with the settings on the unit.

    If yours is like the ones I’m used to, it should be as simple as:
    – Plug standard phone handset into ‘handset socket’
    – Connect phone line to ‘line’
    – Power on
    – Pick up handset – you should hear dial tone (if you don’t then something not right and needs sorting before going any further – I’d tend to suspect the line rather than the unit)
    – Connect ‘output’ to a spare channel on desk
    – Connect ‘input’ to a post-fade mix containing everything except the channel you just connected the output to (called a ‘clean-feed’ – prevents the caller from hearing themselves and creating feedback) – or for testing purposes just feed it with an ipod or whatever
    – Pick up handset and call your mobile
    – Answer your phone. You should be able to have a two-way conversation between the two phones
    – Bash the big button on the hybrid to patch the call into the desk

    Sounds like GL is a lot more clued up on these things than I am anyway, but that’s the procedure I use and I’ve never had any issues.

    Incidentally the hybrid didn’t work yesterday, as the phone lines in the room had been unpatched down in some basement room that nobody had security clearance to enter (being a large, well-known corporate bank), and from what I gathered, all of their network switchgear was controlled remotely from a different site in Bangalore. So it didn’t get used.

    #1278940
    Avatar
    DaftFader
    Participant

    I could hear the dial tone, could connect to another phone, but pressing the seize button, would not seize the line on either of the two lines that run through the unit …

    #1278926

    @daftfader 702380 wrote:

    I could hear the dial tone, could connect to another phone, but pressing the seize button, would not seize the line on either of the two lines that run through the unit …

    could well be a -24V PABX extension (station) connection; many of these would not be able to supply the 40mA the hybrid requires on top of whatever the telephone draws from the line – on many of them the PABX sees this as a short circuited line and automatically disconnects it. The Sonifex manual warns that “some adjustment may be required” to make the hybrid work on a PABX extension; but does not unfortunately specify exactly what is involved. If the PABX objects to what is being connected to it there might be some sort of alarm appearing somewhere but it could be on the CCU (Central Control Unit) or only present on a systemphone/operators console.

    The whole system might well be older than you are! The use of RJ11 sockets in the UK (before DSL became widespread) was a reminder to site owners, electricians and maintenance staff or anyone else who had to connect up telephones that “this is a PABX extension circuit, not a direct telephone line”.

    You may unfortunately have to cart the hybrid to some random part of the building where there definitely is a normal telephone line and try it out there….

    #1278941
    Avatar
    DaftFader
    Participant

    Just sold a Bose 502C to an Ex-BBC sound engineer, who is currently a pastor at Maidenhead’s Methodist church. I couldn’t help but laugh after you telling me about the BT guys all either turning to drugs or god (or something along them lines, no pun intended). Seems like a really nice chap, just maybe a tad lonely, as you’d get a hell of a back story with the supposedly simplest of calls to him.

    He’s offered me advice on any equipment I have, what I thought was above and beyond for someone purely just buying a relatively cheap item off us. It feels like, he feels like, his expertise is being wasted, and I can see why. He’s currently trying to set up the sound equipment for 3 choir singers and 3 gospel singers, and it’s causing him all kinds of problems, as in his words, the choir singers don’t know what this “thing called a mic” is doing in front of them, and sonically matching up them to the gospel guys and gals who are “used to shouting into an sm58” is his equivalent of hell. :laugh_at:

    #1278927

    At first I was a bit surprised to hear this about a Methodist church; they are like a more British version of Lutherans and these are the kinds of Protestants who actually have some ear for music rather than just ranting or preaching to everyone they are going to burn in Hell. Some of the C of E are musical enough; my (supposedly secular) junior school always sung Christian songs at assembly.

    More than one bit of the Bible advocates “making a joyful noise” for Jesus; music is a big part of most other faith groups.

    Coincidentally I read a paper by this USA Professor about the poor quality of many church sound systems; I got the impression he was referring to the churches where most of the congregation would be middle class white people. The Methodists were the inspiration for black people in USA (especially slaves) to set up their own churches (well known for producing excellent musicians). In Europe, a famous musician with a Lutheran childhood is Armin Van Buuren.

    To be fair the Americans would not have had the luxury of having ancient churches (often built with acoustics in mind) as in Europe; added to which a lot of buildings electric wiring is not correctly connected to “God’s good Earth” (TN-C-S is bad enough as it is, and gets worse if the neutral and protective earth get swapped round at any point).

    Last weekend and the start of this week I actually listened to the entire Radio Maria NL may marathon (they were running into financial difficulties, but managed to raise €36 000!) using a Raspberry PI and cheap USB soundcard (the internal one is not very strong and sounds a bit rough); and the youth programme on Monday evening (presented by Lars (the dude who I previously said was what Daftfader would look like if he were Catholic and Dutch), and Bob (another lad in his 20s). I can now understand all of it and RMNL has played a big part in improving my Dutch.

    They had speeches from the Pope set to breakbeats; a phone in with some bishop from Limburg (probably old enough to be my Dad) who told a joke and sung in his local dialect (not unlike that of Groningen), with a house instrumental used as a music bed, as well as a young lad and a woman (who may have been brother and sister) singing and playing guitar in the chapel (in both English and Dutch!). Of course they also said (or sung) their prayers; but it was in a way similar to modern music. It was a very upbeat programme; They actually managed 1,5 hours of Catholic radio without Angst or Pianos (a near miracle!)

    I never thought I’d find myself listening to a religious station for many hours but RMNL are a run like a giant community radio station – they are way better than what Hilversum broadcasts and even with resource/technical limitations (such as one set of playout channels on one desk being connected differently to those in another studio) pay close attention to the sound quality.

    #1278928

    @cheeseweasel 702362 wrote:

    Incidentally the hybrid didn’t work yesterday, as the phone lines in the room had been unpatched down in some basement room that nobody had security clearance to enter (being a large, well-known corporate bank), and from what I gathered, all of their network switchgear was controlled remotely from a different site in Bangalore. So it didn’t get used.

    It is always best to clearly label important circuits in comms rooms. I sm sure these ones don’t get accidentally disconnected (or else whoever did that ends up being sent out to the woods in winter to count bears. Although bears aren’t as aggressive as folk think, the Weather is and its a lot harsher outside than in a nice warm Telephone Exchange….

    3835832755_aa86742f93_b.jpg

    #1278942
    Avatar
    DaftFader
    Participant

    Is that what controls that machine of a man? :laugh_at:

    #1278929

    possibly; although according to the Russian dude who uploaded it to Flickr (and must have had some high level clearance to get that near kit like this) its part of a ACD (call distribution) setup for the “ask the President” discussions on state TV/radio – a bit like an adults version of the 1990s/2000s practice of dialling 020 811 8181 (or its predecssors) for the CBBC Saturday morning programmes. The other end of the circuit may eventually have ended up on some kind of hybrid! (extracts from this programme do get shown on Western Tv now and then).

    Those 237 blocks (or whatever the Russians call them) are an unusual pattern as they are labelled for 3 wires per circuit rather than two; but a c-wire which isn’t simply an earth (which would come from the frame of the rack or from a local earth on the site) is not normally used nowadays – in Soviet times it might have been used for seizing special priority circuits or listening into the room audio via the telephone; but Mr Putin can of course get his own recordings from the broadcaster anyway, the “hammer and sickle” white phone sets were usually 4 wire circuits (probably replaced by VOIP now as the phones were made in Latvia) and surely Krone blocks weren’t used in Soviet days?

    Maybe they were (probably something else the Germans quietly sold “under the table” and its the UK which was behind the times (we only got tone dialling in 1991!)

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