Forums Music Sound Equipment Need Help with Sound System Build

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  • #1042790
    goldenboiyaj
    Participant

    Hello, I need help with a re-purchase for a school. Their previous equipment was stolen. I know enough to get the system parts but not too technical the specs and what matches what for the best config.

    Some of the stuff they use this system is for small parties, youth group activities, seminars, meetings and performances. It’s a portable system that needs to be stored away because the room is used for other stuff. The room spec is about 80ftX160ft and it is one floor.

    Some of problems with old system: They had to put the main volume pretty high for mics and it would create lots of feedback and noise from the speakers. People would sometimes sit about 5ft from the speakers and you can hear it. There were too many channels on the mixer.

    They still have the two JBL JRX125 speakers. Old mixer was the Behringer Eurodesk SL2442FX-Pro Mixer.

    Plan to purchase from GuitarCenter: My purchase list below is $1139.98

    • QSC RMX 1450 Amplifier $429.99
    • Behringer Xenyx 2222FX Mixer $279.99
    • Monster Cable S-100 50ft. Speaker cable $59.99 ($59.99*2=$119.98)
    • Musicians Gear 30ft XLR M/F Mic Cable. $14.99 ($14.99*2=$29.98)
    • Monster Cable S-100 3ft. XLR Mic Amp-Mixer Cable $19.99 ($19.99*2=$39.98)
    • Nady 3pack Microphone XLR SP-R3 $39.99
    • Nady UHF-4/HT Wireless Mics $99.99 ($99.99*2=$199.98)


    Here are some other questions..

    • Is this setup compatible or the best within budget?
    • What is the cause on the old system where they’re had to put the volume high and getting too much feedback on speakers? Could it be the mic, amps, speakers?
    • Am I missing any other equipment to make the sound/system better? Such as more speakers or different type.
    • They want wireless mics. Are the Nady’s picked decent/dependable and workable with this budget.
    • Any inputs or ideas would be appreciated.

    Thanks,
    KY

    #1124209
    noname
    Participant

    Sticking a compressor in for the mic inputs would help – you can sideband a graphic to help the feedback too, or just get a dedicated feedback destroyer which includes both in one box (and usually has an auto mode so you don’t have to spend the time setting it up:weee:). Behringer make good versions of both…

    The mixer – check if you need all the channels (the 2222FX has 22, and has 2 subgroups, 3 aux’s, and main mix.) You have only 5 mics (and I assume you want the ability to input other sources too, but likely not more than maybe 5 or so). Soundcraft do an excellent mixer range – the ‘M’ series mixers shouldn’t cost much more than 500 or so dollars (check ebay) – they come in 4, 8 and 12 input versions, but have stereo line inputs too (my M8 has 8 inputs for mic or line level mono, and 4 stereo pairs, along with 4 aux busses, and monitor out as well as main mix – no subgroups, but subgroups are only really useful if you have 8 or so…) – it only cost me £200… You would also get the benefit of the Soundcraft sound (which is very good – they use only high quality components), and an excellent user manual/sound mixing guide – to show you how to tune each input, and the best ways to config for different venues (and is written in real language instead of acronym speak…:wink:). Behringer mixers tend to sound quite tinny (due to the components used AFAIK), and tend to be prone to faults if used roughly (I had a Eurodesk blow one of it’s power rails from an artist screaming into a mic one night – the venue had no mic compressor, and I didn’t have one available or I’d have been using it. Very expensive though – the PSU’s are the most expensive parts of most mixers, and blowing rails usually means a cost so high that you may as well get a new mixer…:hopeless:) Soundcraft also do a cheaper range which takes out 2 of the aux busses, and changes the swept mid eq’s for fixed mid – it also adds a pair of subgroup channels though, and will still have the Soundcraft sound and build quality (their cheaper mixers take out features instead of skimping on component quality – I’ve had and used numerous incarnations since the early 90’s, and they are second to none IMO).

    You could also check the price of a Peavey PV1500 – likely a bit more expensive than the QSC, but a better amp (and rated at 500W RMS @ 4 ohm which is an exact impedance match for the JBL speakers).

    And for the speaker cable, instead of buying pre-made, get a measurement for how much you need, and buy 16amp mains core cable and 4 speakon connectors (will likely set you back about $50-60 for 100m mains cable and 4 speakons). Speakons are really easy to wire (no soldering, as they use screw down wire connections), and you could even get away with only 2 if you get the Peavey (which has binding posts – far better for a static installation or one that doesn’t need constant setting up/taking down in different configurations). Also measuring exactly what you need means shorter cable runs – something which will help the sound (longer speaker cables means more capacitance, especially if left coiled neatly, and also leaves extraneous coils of high tension (and therefore possibly dangerous) cable lying around. If you have enough cash to pick up a wee flight case (probably $40-$50 for an SKB or something like) for the amp, you can just coil the speaker and input cables into the case when you put it all away, and leave the amp end connected with the other ends labelled.

    As for the level problems – which inputs were being used on the Eurodesk? The wired mics (if they’re standard diaphragm mics) need a high impedance input (the XLR connectors on the mixer), and are very low voltage – typically less than 10mV. The wireless likely converts to low impedance line level (which then plug into the jack inputs), and is 500mV for consumer line level, and +4dBV for pro kit. Guitars and whatnot are also high impedance, but have a higher voltage level than mics (they usually use a DI or Direct Injection box to connect to mixer mic inputs).

    This can all be really confusing unless you know what you’re at – I sort these level differences by using a multi input DI box made by Behringer (DI-800), which has 8 inputs that can be either balanced line, or unbalanced, and any impedance/voltage combination. It then converts all into high impedance mic level outputs that can be plugged into the mixer, uses servo balancing to reduce RF interference. It also has either a +20dB pad, or a -30dB pad switch on each channel to balance up the levels if you have one that is extremly high, and ground lift on each channel for any ground loop problems. Excellent box, and I paid about £60 for it, so it likely costs the same in dollars over in the US….

    The JBL speakers are OK as long as they’re not goosed – check all speakers in each box is working, and check for leaks in the box joins – if the edges leak, the speaker won’t run properly. If you suspect leaks, the best way to cure them is to open the box (usually by taking out the main speaker driver – in this case the 15″ cone), and run a silicone or similar sealant around the joins to make them airtight. I’m not a great fan of JBL speakers, but that’s a personal preference (like the Behringer mixers, I find they tend to be tinny). If you want a better pair (and can afford), a set of turbo TXD’s are much better, but if you don’t actually need the serious bottom end (ie – you are unlikely to use them for a rave or somesuch), you could look into speakers that use smaller drivers (you can pick up a pair of Turbosound TXD 121’s on ebay for around $500 which would only need 300W a channel from an amp, and would easily fill a 10mx20m space if you don’t need high power sub bass). Or if you need a bit of extra bass, the site you mention has Peavey PR 15’s – decent bass response, and a 2″ compression driver with flare and EQ on the crossover for the mid/top (good for voice etc). They only need 400W (likely @ 8ohm, – it doesn’t specify on the site, but only 2 drivers with crossover likely means 8ohm – the PV 1500 would drive them no prob)…..

    You could also take a look at the Peavey audio performer pack – which only has 4 inputs, but is a powered mixer/speaker system and comes with 2 mics, all cables, and has a line out for connecting to an external amp for extra reinforcement….

    Like I say – work out exactly what you want the system to be able to do, and what you may want it to be capable of in the future. Then work out what you already have, what you can’t live without, and what you would like, but could survive without and how much you have to spend (ideal, and what you could stretch to if absolutely necessary). If you post here (or PM me) and let me know the details, I’ll go and work out what equipment will cover it, and the best way to set it up (it’s winter here, so I have some time on my hands – the advice is free, but you could become a Partyvibe subscriber and donate to the running of the forum if you have spare and think the advice is worth it…Or let your venue be used for raves when you get it sorted…:wink:)

    #1145129
    noname
    Participant

    Sticking a compressor in for the mic inputs would help – you can sideband a graphic to help the feedback too, or just get a dedicated feedback destroyer which includes both in one box (and usually has an auto mode so you don’t have to spend the time setting it up:weee:). Behringer make good versions of both…

    The mixer – check if you need all the channels (the 2222FX has 22, and has 2 subgroups, 3 aux’s, and main mix.) You have only 5 mics (and I assume you want the ability to input other sources too, but likely not more than maybe 5 or so). Soundcraft do an excellent mixer range – the ‘M’ series mixers shouldn’t cost much more than 500 or so dollars (check ebay) – they come in 4, 8 and 12 input versions, but have stereo line inputs too (my M8 has 8 inputs for mic or line level mono, and 4 stereo pairs, along with 4 aux busses, and monitor out as well as main mix – no subgroups, but subgroups are only really useful if you have 8 or so…) – it only cost me £200… You would also get the benefit of the Soundcraft sound (which is very good – they use only high quality components), and an excellent user manual/sound mixing guide – to show you how to tune each input, and the best ways to config for different venues (and is written in real language instead of acronym speak…:wink:). Behringer mixers tend to sound quite tinny (due to the components used AFAIK), and tend to be prone to faults if used roughly (I had a Eurodesk blow one of it’s power rails from an artist screaming into a mic one night – the venue had no mic compressor, and I didn’t have one available or I’d have been using it. Very expensive though – the PSU’s are the most expensive parts of most mixers, and blowing rails usually means a cost so high that you may as well get a new mixer…:hopeless:) Soundcraft also do a cheaper range which takes out 2 of the aux busses, and changes the swept mid eq’s for fixed mid – it also adds a pair of subgroup channels though, and will still have the Soundcraft sound and build quality (their cheaper mixers take out features instead of skimping on component quality – I’ve had and used numerous incarnations since the early 90’s, and they are second to none IMO).

    You could also check the price of a Peavey PV1500 – likely a bit more expensive than the QSC, but a better amp (and rated at 500W RMS @ 4 ohm which is an exact impedance match for the JBL speakers).

    And for the speaker cable, instead of buying pre-made, get a measurement for how much you need, and buy 16amp mains core cable and 4 speakon connectors (will likely set you back about $50-60 for 100m mains cable and 4 speakons). Speakons are really easy to wire (no soldering, as they use screw down wire connections), and you could even get away with only 2 if you get the Peavey (which has binding posts – far better for a static installation or one that doesn’t need constant setting up/taking down in different configurations). Also measuring exactly what you need means shorter cable runs – something which will help the sound (longer speaker cables means more capacitance, especially if left coiled neatly, and also leaves extraneous coils of high tension (and therefore possibly dangerous) cable lying around. If you have enough cash to pick up a wee flight case (probably $40-$50 for an SKB or something like) for the amp, you can just coil the speaker and input cables into the case when you put it all away, and leave the amp end connected with the other ends labelled.

    As for the level problems – which inputs were being used on the Eurodesk? The wired mics (if they’re standard diaphragm mics) need a high impedance input (the XLR connectors on the mixer), and are very low voltage – typically less than 10mV. The wireless likely converts to low impedance line level (which then plug into the jack inputs), and is 500mV for consumer line level, and +4dBV for pro kit. Guitars and whatnot are also high impedance, but have a higher voltage level than mics (they usually use a DI or Direct Injection box to connect to mixer mic inputs).

    This can all be really confusing unless you know what you’re at – I sort these level differences by using a multi input DI box made by Behringer (DI-800), which has 8 inputs that can be either balanced line, or unbalanced, and any impedance/voltage combination. It then converts all into high impedance mic level outputs that can be plugged into the mixer, uses servo balancing to reduce RF interference. It also has either a +20dB pad, or a -30dB pad switch on each channel to balance up the levels if you have one that is extremly high, and ground lift on each channel for any ground loop problems. Excellent box, and I paid about £60 for it, so it likely costs the same in dollars over in the US….

    The JBL speakers are OK as long as they’re not goosed – check all speakers in each box is working, and check for leaks in the box joins – if the edges leak, the speaker won’t run properly. If you suspect leaks, the best way to cure them is to open the box (usually by taking out the main speaker driver – in this case the 15″ cone), and run a silicone or similar sealant around the joins to make them airtight. I’m not a great fan of JBL speakers, but that’s a personal preference (like the Behringer mixers, I find they tend to be tinny). If you want a better pair (and can afford), a set of turbo TXD’s are much better, but if you don’t actually need the serious bottom end (ie – you are unlikely to use them for a rave or somesuch), you could look into speakers that use smaller drivers (you can pick up a pair of Turbosound TXD 121’s on ebay for around $500 which would only need 300W a channel from an amp, and would easily fill a 10mx20m space if you don’t need high power sub bass). Or if you need a bit of extra bass, the site you mention has Peavey PR 15’s – decent bass response, and a 2″ compression driver with flare and EQ on the crossover for the mid/top (good for voice etc). They only need 400W (likely @ 8ohm, – it doesn’t specify on the site, but only 2 drivers with crossover likely means 8ohm – the PV 1500 would drive them no prob)…..

    You could also take a look at the Peavey audio performer pack – which only has 4 inputs, but is a powered mixer/speaker system and comes with 2 mics, all cables, and has a line out for connecting to an external amp for extra reinforcement….

    Like I say – work out exactly what you want the system to be able to do, and what you may want it to be capable of in the future. Then work out what you already have, what you can’t live without, and what you would like, but could survive without and how much you have to spend (ideal, and what you could stretch to if absolutely necessary). If you post here (or PM me) and let me know the details, I’ll go and work out what equipment will cover it, and the best way to set it up (it’s winter here, so I have some time on my hands – the advice is free, but you could become a Partyvibe subscriber and donate to the running of the forum if you have spare and think the advice is worth it…Or let your venue be used for raves when you get it sorted…:wink:)

    #1124210
    goldenboiyaj
    Participant

    NONAME, Thanks for taking the time to read my post. I know you spent a lot of time replying. I really do appreciate the inputs.

    I forgot to include that my budget around 1100-1300 for this project.

    As for the mixer, the 2222FX is only a 8 channel mixer. The 2442FX is a 24 channel and was the old mixer that was stolen. What other mixer brand would you recommend that has 8-12 channels and is reasonable with my budget?

    What do u recommend for a compressor? Would the Behringer Autocom PRO-XL MDX1600 be a good one?What is a compressor anyway? I would like one without much configuration. If I get a compressor, what other types of equipment would I need add for my buy list. (cables, wires, etc..). Does it connect to the Amp or Mixer?

    The wireless mics is a must have. They have performances and meetings where wires are just not safe(kids walk across wires sometimes). From reading reviews on wireless mics for that price range, It seems the Nady’s I’ve chosen should be ok.

    I don’t intend to buy new speakers as the budget is limited. Thanks for the info though. They need the long wires because the setup for events changes cause they go the way in at times.

    I’m lost when you get into numbers on the mics. They use to have ¼ plug mics before and the quality on it was so bad. I intend to buy XLR mics only now. I did change to the SHURE brand.

    The Peavy amp you suggested is $20 more than the QSC. I think I will go with the PEAVY if that’s your recommendation.

    Below is an updated list with the new stuff. If you got any more inputs or if i’m missing anything that make the system work, please let me know. Thanks again.
    K.Y.

    Guitar Center Purchase List:

    • Peavy PV 1500 AMP $449.99
    • Behringer Xenyx 2222FX Mixer $279.99
    • Behringer Compressor PRO-XL MDX1600 $99.99
    • Shure 3pack Microphone PG48 $79.99
    • Monster Cable S-100 50ft. Speaker cable $59.99 ($59.99*2=$119.98)
    • Musicians Gear 30ft XLR M/F Mic Cable. $14.99 ($14.99*2=$29.98)
    • Monster Cable S-100 3ft. XLR Mic Amp-Mixer Cable $19.99 ($19.99*2=$39.98)
    • Nady UHF-4/HT Wireless Mics $99.99 ($99.99*2=$199.98)

    Total=$1299.88

    #1145130
    goldenboiyaj
    Participant

    NONAME, Thanks for taking the time to read my post. I know you spent a lot of time replying. I really do appreciate the inputs.

    I forgot to include that my budget around 1100-1300 for this project.

    As for the mixer, the 2222FX is only a 8 channel mixer. The 2442FX is a 24 channel and was the old mixer that was stolen. What other mixer brand would you recommend that has 8-12 channels and is reasonable with my budget?

    What do u recommend for a compressor? Would the Behringer Autocom PRO-XL MDX1600 be a good one?What is a compressor anyway? I would like one without much configuration. If I get a compressor, what other types of equipment would I need add for my buy list. (cables, wires, etc..). Does it connect to the Amp or Mixer?

    The wireless mics is a must have. They have performances and meetings where wires are just not safe(kids walk across wires sometimes). From reading reviews on wireless mics for that price range, It seems the Nady’s I’ve chosen should be ok.

    I don’t intend to buy new speakers as the budget is limited. Thanks for the info though. They need the long wires because the setup for events changes cause they go the way in at times.

    I’m lost when you get into numbers on the mics. They use to have ¼ plug mics before and the quality on it was so bad. I intend to buy XLR mics only now. I did change to the SHURE brand.

    The Peavy amp you suggested is $20 more than the QSC. I think I will go with the PEAVY if that’s your recommendation.

    Below is an updated list with the new stuff. If you got any more inputs or if i’m missing anything that make the system work, please let me know. Thanks again.
    K.Y.

    Guitar Center Purchase List:

    • Peavy PV 1500 AMP $449.99
    • Behringer Xenyx 2222FX Mixer $279.99
    • Behringer Compressor PRO-XL MDX1600 $99.99
    • Shure 3pack Microphone PG48 $79.99
    • Monster Cable S-100 50ft. Speaker cable $59.99 ($59.99*2=$119.98)
    • Musicians Gear 30ft XLR M/F Mic Cable. $14.99 ($14.99*2=$29.98)
    • Monster Cable S-100 3ft. XLR Mic Amp-Mixer Cable $19.99 ($19.99*2=$39.98)
    • Nady UHF-4/HT Wireless Mics $99.99 ($99.99*2=$199.98)

    Total=$1299.88

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Forums Music Sound Equipment Need Help with Sound System Build