Forums Music Sound Engineering Monitor speaker placement

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  • #1051691
    General Lighting
    Moderator

      I’m slowly getting back into mixing (bought a controller/mixer last week) and got a set of basic monitor speakers – nothing special, but the old style JBL control ones (wanted a pair for 20 years) :laugh_at: I got the normal ones rather than the Pro ones as they were considerable cheaper and appear to use the same driver units – the only difference being the pro ones have some sort of overload protection (which makes sense as often the folk working in pro stuidos haven’t always paid for the kit from their own pockets..)

      Anyway the instruction manuals show positioning for use in hi-fi or home theatre applications, however I am going to be using them for mixing and IMO these instructions have the speakers way too far away. I want to be able to keep the noise only in this room as much as possible so I don’t annoy neighbours etc (otherwise I would have bought a wall of Celestions :laugh_at:)

      This pic is a layout of my current desk. the controller is in the flight case in the front and will normally be linked to the netbook on the stand (I use the more powerful laptop with dual display for video and stuff such as typing on PV, as the netbook handles Virtual DJ just fine and I tend to look at the controller meters as much as the computer display..

      My view is the best positioning would be the left hand speaker to the left of the laptop (near the picture of the cat) and the RHS one just above the metal rack of drawers of electronic components – this would hopefully be just right for both mixing from the controller and other AV production from the main computer.

      But I thought I’d ask all you lot for any other suggestions as many of you have been doing this stuff a lot more recently than me and there is a lot of good knowledge here..

      [ATTACH=CONFIG]80887[/ATTACH]

      #1245654
      cheeseweasel
      Participant

        If I remember rightly, the ITU-R recommendation (if not the ITU-R then some other professional body) for stereo speaker placement states that the two speakers should be placed at +30 and -30 degrees relative to the listening axis (i.e. you and the speakers for an equilateral triangle). It’s a pretty irrelevant detail though as it assumes that the end listener will have their speakers set up in the same way at home, presumably with a big armchair in the middle, in a special ‘hi-fi room’ with brandy and cigars on-hand.

        Accurate stereo imaging isn’t that important in dance music (certainly compared with classical recording, where engineers go to great lengths to make sure that each instrument appears in its correct position in the stereo field), as the stereo field is used more to give width and head-fucky effects to the sound, and not to place individual sounds at a particular angle (no-one’s going to be sat at home going ‘something’s not right here, the TB303 is panned +20 degrees instead of +15!’).

        So the things to consider when placing the speakers are:
        – Should be close enough to you that you’re getting a good direct-to-reverberant sound ratio (Control 1s are only small, nearfield speakers)
        – Keep them away from room corners, which are a pressure node for all room modes and will result in a coloured sound (same reason why putting a sub in a corner gives more SPL)
        – Put them roughly at +30 and -30 degrees

        Sorry if I’m teaching you to suck eggs btw (you worked as a broadcast engineer, right?).

        JBL make wall brackets for the Control 1 – I’d just mount the two speakers on the wall at about head height as you’re sat at the computer.

        #1245652
        General Lighting
        Moderator

          Cheers dude – I was hoping you’d answer as you are one of the chaps who knows his stuff – and although I was a broadcast engineer it was over 10 years ago now and most of my work was on control / playout systems and signal processing (basically getting the content down the wire to BT) and what pissed me off whas the technology was being used to save costs rather than increase content quality. Last time I wallmounted speakers was on work experience in 1987 and they were 100V line PA ones for a student canteen. (Wouldn’t be surprised if they are still there over two decades later..)

          @cheeseweasel 454194 wrote:

          If I remember rightly, the ITU-R recommendation (if not the ITU-R then some other professional body) for stereo speaker placement states that the two speakers should be placed at +30 and -30 degrees relative to the listening axis (i.e. you and the speakers for an equilateral triangle). It’s a pretty irrelevant detail though as it assumes that the end listener will have their speakers set up in the same way at home, presumably with a big armchair in the middle, in a special ‘hi-fi room’ with brandy and cigars on-hand.

          I’ve heard this one. Could have been EBU/UER but then adopted by the ITU-R. To be far the EBU do a lot of good stuff (all the top boffins of places like BBC, Danmarks Radio, Deutsche Welle, NOS (Nederlandse Omroep Stichting) would have all these heavy meeting about getting the best sound quality). The were (not surprisingly) biased towards clasical music of North Europe amd TBH but due to budget cuts at national broadcasters worldwide I’m not sure if many of their recommendations are even bothered with nowdays – the broadcasters views are “if sound comes out of it its OK”.

          Also today there is almost probably a sign in the listening room

          “ACHTUNG! Kein Rauchen und Trinken im Abhörraum – Das is schädlich fur die Geräte (und irhe Gesundheit)!”

          Incidentally were lucky to get any hospitality out of Auntie – they wanted outside contractors in and out of their sites as quick as possible. To be fair the Germans would take you to the beer hall after work (until I discovered decent English ale I came close to considerg emigrating to DE just for the Bier). But they still expected a 7am start (I think all of Northern Europe does this as my Danish mate is like that and even sinner logs on really early in the morning despite heavy nights)

          Quote:
          JBL make wall brackets for the Control 1 – I’d just mount the two speakers on the wall at about head height as you’re sat at the computer.

          mine came with a set of these. Now all I have to do is work out the instructions, translate the dimensions into metric and work out where the load of rawlplugs I bought a while ago are….

          #1245655
          DaftFader
          Participant

            as far as i understand it the speakers should be roughly at 30 deg angles and you should be sitting at roughly the same distance away from the speakers as they are from each other, so if they were at 30 deg angles you would have them pointing at each ear (what would result in you sitting x-distance away due to the angle).

            If for example you have a problem with space (as i do) you may have to put the speakers closer together (or further apart if things have to go inbetween them) this would throw off your 30 deg angles as you need the speakers pointing at your ears. What you need to make sure is that you got the same distance between the two speakers as you have distance between you and the speakers and angle them acordingly.

            It’s not ideal, but the best way I’ve found of getting round this problem. I would be sitting half way across my room otherwise trying to make a sound leaning right over and then hoping to sit back up in my seat to the correct position quickly within the 5ms of delay i get on my midi keyboard. :laugh_at:

            #1245656
            DaftFader
            Participant

              On another note, subfocus, who makes some of the most “fancy” D+B imo, just has both speakers either side of his monitor pointing straight at his face, and probably mixes down the sterio aspects of his tune somewhere else.

              As cheese said, with dance music it’s not such a massive thing as some loud systems are mono anyway, and even when you’re listening in a place with quadraphonic sound, it’s mainly the bass what drives the music and this has to be mono for phaze issues. The sterio panning you’ll get on dance is, again like cheese sais, no so much instrament placing, but more widening efects on sounds like detuning with sterio placement for example.

              #1245653
              Raj
              Participant

                My 2p is to try a load of likely positions with some piece of music you are very familiar with and then check them with a variety of random sounds to make sure they are working for you; I say this as a person who has different hearing to 95% of the population and can hear stuff no-one else notices as a problem till I have corrected it. The speakers have to be right for you. There are technical calculations which are a good starting point but nothing will be as good as what you feel is best for you to work with.
                I do sound checks with vivaldi, enigma and a load of frequency specific music specifically picked to help me tune the rig up [one cab pair at a time] but as you have two speakers pick out something with a good overall frequency coverage [vivaldi, phil collins, etc] and try adjusting them till you are happy.

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              Forums Music Sound Engineering Monitor speaker placement