- This topic has 28 replies, 6 voices, and was last updated May 17, 2006 at 11:28 pm by Raj.
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April 20, 2006 at 12:19 pm #1037609
Right to start off i best tell you all what i am doing. I am planning to build a couple of 18″ inch super scoops. although this is my first attempt at buliding speakers, and was just wondering what brand of driver to use. My price range is about £150 per driver, and need to know which would be most durable for heavy duty noise and able to take a bit of a knocking about. any other advice would be more than welcome. Thanks :surprised
April 20, 2006 at 2:55 pm #1071386The best advice would be to go for PD1850’s (precision devices) as this is what the super scooper was designed for.
Unfortunately for you they are around about £250 to buy new.
Your other options are:
RCF L18-P200N – approx £150 new
Emminence Omega Pro 18 – approx £150 newThere are more 18″ drivers out there but a lot don’t reach the required 800w you need or they are out of your price range.
My advice: Go for the RCF’s or look for some second hand PD1850’s. Both of these will sound better and take more battering than the Emminence driver.
One thing I’d like to mention is, overdrive your speakers if you wish but make sure it is a non distorted signal that you are sending to them as this will feck them up way quicker than overpowering them.
April 20, 2006 at 6:17 pm #1071405we would advise loading them with
Fane colossus 18 xb drivers
http://www.fane-acoustics.com
which have survived everything we have ever done to them [by accident or design] and sound as sweet as you could ever want; also have a hell of a kick to them.they are the doggy’s doodas
:alien_abd
April 20, 2006 at 6:55 pm #1071387The XB’s are only 600w though. You wont get the best out of the cabinet with them although it will still sound ok.
Infact I don’t think fane produce an 800w 18″ driver.
April 20, 2006 at 7:50 pm #1071398Thanx for that guys. I had already checked out the emminence’s and thought they may be capable but wasnt entirely sure wether to belive what the website was saying. Will put your info to good use and if anyone’s got any more tips then keep em coming.
Cheers:bigsmile: P.S. May need more help in the future!April 21, 2006 at 4:26 am #1071392I’m with bio on this one the RCF is definately the better option. Emminence drivers don’t tend to last outdoors and sound pretty poor in comparison to the RCF (or a man farting in apaper bag, to be a snob)
April 21, 2006 at 10:26 am #1071406:bigsmile:i still think the xb are more bomb proof than anything else we have worked with in the last ten years; we have maliciously overdriven them by a huge margin and the drivers were still raring to go afterwards and sounded fine; peak rating for them is 1500-2000w [1.5-2kw] if i correctly recall the specs
{what we did to check them afterwards was play classical music through the rig to recheck the frequency response and they were then played in clubs for several years afterwards…}:alien_abd
:idea:it is also the double helicoil suspension which makes the Colussus so special in the world of drivers [ we do use eminence for the high end of the rig though]
:bigsmile:Anyway its your money so spend it on what you think best and have many happy years of booming with them; good luck building the cabs; may you measure twice and cut once as the saying goes:bigsmile:
April 21, 2006 at 10:50 am #1071399Yeh i think i will go for the xb’s they sound pretty heavy duty and like the idea of something that can be bashed about and slightly overdriven. But do you know what the cost will be?
Thanks to all.April 21, 2006 at 11:05 am #1071407have a good hunt around
when we bought our last set we saved about £100 by rummaging around the internet for several hours; i think they are well within your budget;
:idea:checkout the distribution link on fane’s site
:idea:also ebay as they sold them a pair ten days ago;:bigsmile:search using:
18xb
Fane 18xb
[or try searching for Fane]a rapid google brought up prices ranging from £150 – 240 so happy hunting
:alien_abdApril 21, 2006 at 11:12 am #1071400Yeh just found one on an american site for $290 thats about £160. so could easily get them just a bit over the price.
April 24, 2006 at 3:37 am #1071408BioTech wrote:The XB’s are only 600w though. You wont get the best out of the cabinet with them although it will still sound ok.Infact I don’t think fane produce an 800w 18″ driver.
Aye, but as with most PA equipment the numbers are not a good way to compare. (I’m driving the allegedly 600w RMS speakers with cs800’s in bridge mode – ie 800w RMS constantly, and I’ve driven them at 1300w RMS using PV1.3K’s with no trouble)
They can take transient peaks of 2500w, but as with all speakers they are happy doing that only if they are not distorting.
And the electrical wattage values really mean little if the speaker isn’t efficient, and the XB is extremely efficient. It has a longer dynamic range than any other speaker I’ve seen/heard (about 3″), and is capable of 129dB per speaker in free air – not bad for only 600w.
The old addage applies – it’s not the size of the wand, it’s the way you wave it that counts…:bounce_m::bounce_m:April 24, 2006 at 6:10 pm #1071388rajsuspect wrote:Aye, but as with most PA equipment the numbers are not a good way to compare. (I’m driving the allegedly 600w RMS speakers with cs800’s in bridge mode – ie 800w RMS constantly, and I’ve driven them at 1300w RMS using PV1.3K’s with no trouble)They can take transient peaks of 2500w, but as with all speakers they are happy doing that only if they are not distorting.
And the electrical wattage values really mean little if the speaker isn’t efficient, and the XB is extremely efficient. It has a longer dynamic range than any other speaker I’ve seen/heard (about 3″), and is capable of 129dB per speaker in free air – not bad for only 600w.
The old addage applies – it’s not the size of the wand, it’s the way you wave it that counts…:bounce_m::bounce_m:Agreed. We drive most our cabs with double the rated power as our amps can cruise it without ever clipping as long as the dj is kept in check with his gains all is sweet.
I wouldn’t recommend a beginner overdriving speakers though. Not until they have a good understanding of the signal chain & gain structure.
The XB’s are good old troopers and I’d reccomend them highly for their price, we used them in our old scoops for a couple of years driving them at 1k RMS each and never had to replace one. I’d also agree with the fact that the numbers are not always a good indication but they ARE a guideline. They can handle 2500w transient peaks but you’ll find that most drivers can cope with a peak programme output of 4 times+ their RMS rating. A single driver outside an enclosure producing 128db is pretty impressive though!
Despite the good quality of the XB I’d still stick with my original suggestion of getting some second hand PD1850’s as this is the driver the cabinet was designed around and therefore will most likely be more efficient than any other driver in that paticular enclosure. The RCF’s are also high quality units and I’d stick with them as my second choice. However, the Fane’s can’t be beaten for value and will definately stand the test of time.
May 10, 2006 at 2:46 pm #1071401Oh yeah before i forget, could any point me in the right direction as to what crossover i will need to buy for the fane xb’s?
May 10, 2006 at 4:03 pm #1071389The type of crossover you get (I assume you mean an active crossover) has no relevance to the drivers.
How are you running your rig? 3 way stereo? 3 way mono? 4 way mono? etc etc
May 11, 2006 at 2:02 pm #1071409:horay:we use a behringer cx 3400 super x pro:horay:
2 and 3 way stereo and 4 way mono;
they have gain control on every band [output],
wide selectable set of bands,
you can have constant directivity on the top band [acts as a pre-eq for top band]
rack mountable
balanced line inputs [essential obviously],
25hz susbsonic filter
you can mute each of the outputs individually for ease of rig tuning
you can invert any of the signals if you are having phase problems; also a time delay if you need it
a built in peak limiter [which allows you to skip the compressor if you dont know how to use one as they can destroy your system]
all switches are backlit so you can see them in the dark and they are pretty when you’re wasted
the manual is good; one of the best we’ve seen
they dont make the tea yet but the engineers are working on this
they are well designed, sound good and cheapyou can pay ridiculous prices for other crossovers; these ones are robust and sound nice
[and no we dont get a kickback for drooling like this]
:alien_abdlet us know if you want more help/advice or if lots of this sounded like blah blah blah and you need an explanation
best of luck
May 11, 2006 at 2:46 pm #1071402Yeh thanx to da both of you, you guys bin a good help to me over the past couple of weeks, in response to rajaspect i am afraid the top half of that last post didnt make a huge deal of sense as i am not the technical one of our group. i plan on doing my speaker component revision soon as pos though(lol). And i will probably be asking you guys for more help near the end of june/start of july, as thats when i will start full production. Always a pleasure talking and thanx again.
May 12, 2006 at 5:23 pm #1071410this is a basic explanation for raverbaby; if any one wants a more in depth explanation i am happy to post one on request [ i will write a full article]
rajsuspect wrote::horay:we use a behringer cx 3400 super x pro:horay:
this is an active crossover box: in english this means you can select the frequencies which you feed to each pair or set of speakers and this allows you to make the most of the power in the rig as well as not feeding bass through high frequency horns for example
2 and 3 way stereo and 4 way mono;
-this is how many types of speakers you have on the system: 2 means usually bass and mid highs; 3 way usually bass, mids and high and 4 way usually sub, low mid, high mid, high. stereo and mono should be familiar
this is useful to allow you to tune to specific rooms and situations or desired sound output eg heavy bassthey have gain control on every band [output],
-this allows you to increase the output from the crossover to the amp in a specific frequency band so you can boost the chosen frequency or reduce it to tastewide selectable set of bands,
this is the frequency range the crossover will allow you to choose to use for each output; the benefit of a wide band is the flexibility of use of the crossover with different kinds of rigs and acoustic spacesyou can have constant directivity on the top band [acts as a pre-eq for top band]
this allows you to use a focused spread horn for the high frequencies which is more efficient than the alternativerack mountable
can be and should always be IMO mounted in a flight case for ease of moving and safetybalanced line inputs [essential obviously],
allow you greater distance in a wiring run as they remove line noise from the signal
25hz susbsonic filter
allows you to remove all frequencies below 25hz which is more efficient as you dont hear it and it eats power to reproduce it; it can also be dangerous [we once stripped all the tiles off a fully tiled 4 cubicle toilet in a club cos we were not using this filter] [it can also have a bad effect on people if its powered high enough]you can mute each of the outputs individually for ease of rig tuning
this means you can tune each individual set of speakers one at a time and in pairs etc to get the best sound out of your rig in any situationyou can invert any of the signals if you are having phase problems; also a time delay if you need it
certain speaker designs have phase inversion which makes the rig sound strange to the listener as the sound waves are not in phase so they are not peaking in the same place [ this is relatively complex; ask for more info if you want it] [speakers with this problem include w fold horns]a built in peak limiter [which allows you to skip the compressor if you dont know how to use one as they can destroy your system]
this means that you can define the maximum output to the amps so preventing the red line monkeys from blowing your kit [compressors are quite complex to use properly and can do a lot of damage to a rig if not used correctly as they will increase, not decrease, the distortion in the signal being fed to your amps which is what kills the speakers]all switches are backlit so you can see them in the dark and they are pretty when you’re wasted
this saves you having to shine a torch on the crossover to see whats going on and it is prettythe manual is good; one of the best we’ve seen
i really mean this it is a brill manual where so many are diabolicalthey dont make the tea yet but the engineers are working on this
they are well designed, sound good and cheapthey are about £70 per crossover and you need one for 2 or 3 way; 2 for 4 way stereo
you can pay ridiculous prices for other crossovers; these ones are robust and sound nice
[and no we dont get a kickback for drooling like this]
:alien_abdlet us know if you want more help/advice or if lots of this sounded like blah blah blah and you need an explanation
best of luck
hope that helped clarify the blah blah for you raverbaby; let me know if you are still stuck with any of it
:horay::alien_abd:horay::alien_abd:horay:
May 12, 2006 at 5:47 pm #1071403Actually i think that made sense of the blah blah blah but if i get stuck on it wen reading for future reference i will let yah know, once again cheers m8:horay:
May 12, 2006 at 6:02 pm #1071411good luck and happy to help:surprised
May 14, 2006 at 1:47 pm #1071393I’d avoid the behringer crossover….they are fairly unreliable especially when used outdoors. We’ve had problems with ours since the first time we used it (one channel kept cutting out and it would only work in mono).
I’d reccomend saving the money and going for something like…
http://www.decks.co.uk/products/sound_control/samson/s_3_way
May 14, 2006 at 4:02 pm #1071397raverbaby wrote:i am afraid the top half of that last post didnt make a huge deal of sense as i am not the technical one of our groupdont think ne of us are tbh!!
May 14, 2006 at 4:23 pm #1071394Its worth your while to have at least one member clued up on all of your kit and the rest of you at least know how to work it.
Even if you just know how to recognise and fix the most common problems…saves packing up and going home when something simple fucks up.
May 14, 2006 at 4:35 pm #1071390Although I’d agree that they can be dodgy, Elretardo, I think it’s a case of hit and miss with the Behringer stuff. We had the super-x pro and an ultracurve pro for 3 years and never had an issue with them. I know some people that have had probs with them though.
At the sort of price behringer does stuff they simply can’t be beaten on value for money. I think the main reason people dislike behringer is that they steal everbody elses designs and then mass produce them with cheaper parts.
I’d go with what Raj is saying. There are better crossovers out there for sure (and if you’ve got the money raverbaby I’d go for a digital LMS over a crossover) but for £70 you really can’t beat it. It’s got plenty of features and seems better built than other x-overs in the range.
May 14, 2006 at 7:36 pm #1071404I’d avoid the behringer crossover….they are fairly unreliable especially when used outdoors.
well tbh they must come with a warrenty so if i does screw up i can just order a new one
May 15, 2006 at 2:45 pm #1071395raverbaby wrote:well tbh they must come with a warrenty so if i does screw up i can just order a new oneI was just saying thats the one we have and its fucked up twice the first two times its been used properly…and my mate has the samson and its never had a problem even when its been used for 4 days straight at midgedeath.
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