Does reality REALLY exist?

[TEK Tonic]

Right here goes...

A little while ago I was in a bad mood, quite stressed out, couldn't find anything else so I ended up digging up some old Salvia Divinorum and some old CO2 chargers and went for it. This is what happened...

I smoked about three pipes of Salvia so I was good and trippin then did a laughing gas balloon. The lights started to go out and I blissed out for (either an eternity or a split second, cant be sure which?). I had some very interesting thoughts about preception and the possibility that my mind really can sort out any physical problems with my body (I had some pain in my back that when I concentrated on it, clicked and the pain dissapeared). As I started to come round it was as if the layers of reality were peeling away () and I had to choose which reality I was going to stop in.

Now when I try to explain this in English it gets a bit tricky, but let me give it a try...

When I opened my eyes I was sitting in my living room and the missus was lying on the floor (nothing unusual yet), but I just wasn't too sure if I was actually awake yet (which reality had I stopped at and was it the REAL reality?).There was a real possibility that I was actually still comatose on the sofa, I could have been dead or I could have been mad and dribbling while my girlfriend tried to wake me up, but in MY mind I was awake (a classic coma story, possibly straight out of "Life on Mars").

My immediate reaction was to ask my girlfriend to wake me up, she looked confused (who wouldn't if somebody looked you in the eyes and asked you to wake them up?), but tried her best to accomodate her tripped out boyfriend.

Now my logic said that if I asked her if I was awake, she is BOUND to say I am awake, just to keep me in my coma/dream world, so I had to get her to physically wake me up or I just wouldn't believe it.

I still wasn't convinced so I said she had to try harder, and REALLY wake me up. She gently slapped me about the face and said WAKE UP!!

Eventually, after several HUGE thoughts and some interesting conversation I asked my girlfriend if she had woken me up or if I had asked her to wake me up. Only when she said that I had asked her, did I believe that I had been awake in the first place and that reality DID actually REALLY exist as an external phenomenon rather than just an internal set of sensations.

Looking back on it now it makes me laugh really - Salvia is a very strong drug and shouldn't be mixed unless you are with somebody you trust implicitly. I am fairly sure reality does exist, but at the end of the day all I have to work with is a set of human senses and a human brain, neither of which actually confirm the existance of a REAL reality or work in a way that will allow me to understand the WHOLE of reality without my human dogmas and limits.

Like I say, I am now pretty sure reality exists, but does it REALLY exist?

PS. My back pain returned as the drugs wore off

A m8 of mine once mentioned this place "before thought". He was big on Freud and Jung so l think it came from that psychology/philosophy.

Maybe that's where u were?

[TEK Tonic]

Hmmm. I'm pretty sure I was just in my living room tripping out, but maybe you are right (my experience did make me question most things including the validity of a drugs experience from the perspective of a human, I did some research and came to the conclusion that at the end of the day I was just off my rocker !).

Originally posted by Space Master

A m8 of mine once mentioned this place "before thought". He was big on Freud and Jung so l think it came from that psychology/philosophy.

Maybe that's where u were?

That reminds me of something me and the missus have been discussing recently...

Scientists say that they are close to discovering what the Big Bang was like and they seem to suggest that there was a whole lot of nothing before the BB took place.

I have always believed this until recently when I said it out loud and realised that the stuff that makes up the universe must have come from somewhere. Scientists also talk about "before time began". Again this just doesn't wash with me any more. There can't have been a time before time, there just can't be! It can't have been nothing at all, and then all of a sudden there is something, it just can't be!

Buddhists see the world in a more cyclical way and this makes perfect sense - the universe is constantly exploding and imploding again and again, moving away from itself and then comming back together again. This must go back into infinity and will go on into infinity.

No start of the universe. No end of the universe. Just a new cycle.

Originally posted by totallycai

Scientists say that they are close to discovering what the Big Bang was like and they seem to suggest that there was a whole lot of nothing before the BB took place.

Lol, that's like the eye trying to see itself. I doubt anything in the universe could unravel the universe. But if they give it a complicated name e.g. the "Prechronic hiatus" or something, it'll make it all ok.

Originally posted by totallycai

Buddhists see the world in a more cyclical way and this makes perfect sense - the universe is constantly exploding and imploding again and again, moving away from itself and then comming back together again. This must go back into infinity and will go on into infinity.

That means reality exists then. I've noticed there's some definite cyclic thing going on, but instead of a circle it seems like a spiral, getting tighter and tighter. Have u noticed how fast musical trends are changing? That's why l reckon there's got to be a new type of music soon, it's due, within about 20 years at most, judging by how styles have changed in the past 100 years. And the seasons don't even seem to be cyclic any more - is it global warming or is it just the cycle tightening a bit?

Originally posted by totallycai

No start of the universe. No end of the universe. Just a new cycle.

I was going to add something but then that thought led to something else and then something else and now my brain's got all this smoke coming out the bonnet garrrr

What if both sides are right? I mean ... why can't it switch back and forth from nothingness to existence to nothingness etc. forever.

[TEK Tonic]

Originally posted by Space Master

I've noticed there's some definite cyclic thing going on, but instead of a circle it seems like a spiral, getting tighter and tighter. Have u noticed how fast musical trends are changing? That's why l reckon there's got to be a new type of music soon, it's due, within about 20 years at most, judging by how styles have changed in the past 100 years. And the seasons don't even seem to be cyclic any more - is it global warming or is it just the cycle tightening a bit?

I have heard a theory (Robert Anton Wilson I think) about the year 2012. Apparently the amount of "knowledge" humas have will double an infinite number of times in an infnitesimal moment some time in 2012 (if you do some complicated maths and project them into the future). In addition to this the Mayan/Incan callander (which is widely accepted as the most precise callander for predicting planetary allignment (or summink?!?)) actually runs out in 2012. In addition to this there is apparently a big pocket of methane (?) gas under the polar ice caps that will be released by global warming in... you guessed it... 2012.

Originally posted by Space Master

I was going to add something but then that thought led to something else and then something else and now my brain's got all this smoke coming out the bonnet garrrr

Budhism has a lot to answer for!

Originally posted by Space Master

What if both sides are right? I mean ... why can't it switch back and forth from nothingness to existence to nothingness etc. forever.

Sounds quite ordered, in a chaotic kind of way!

[rach]

firstly your trip sounds really mind bending, i'd love to have something that enlightening... except it would most likely to be just confusing to me!

if say 'reality' didnt exist; you are still able to have a thought process about the the exsistance of the 'concept of reality'... so then hasnt reality got some form of existence in the form of just the concept of itself... i'm not quite sure what i mean by that, but perhaps you would be having to question what it truly means to exist...

the 2012 thing is really interesting yet a little bit scary... guess i'll have to just party hard for the next 5 years!

[TEK Tonic]

Originally posted by rach

if say 'reality' didnt exist; you are still able to have a thought process about the the exsistance of the 'concept of reality'... so then hasnt reality got some form of existence in the form of just the concept of itself... i'm not quite sure what i mean by that, but perhaps you would be having to question what it truly means to exist...

I think you're onto somethin there Rach. Reality is all in the eye of the beholder.

Mystic types talk about visiting other worlds, having out-of-body experiences and speaking with extra terrestrial beings who know stuff that they didn't.

I thought I was having an OOBE once, but then I realised I was looking at my astral self float away from my body (just another in-mind experience then?). I have never heard voices in my head that I didn't think were part of my own mind already, but I have looked into DMT entities and have come to the conclusion that they too are just your internal dialogue given some kind of personality that (when you are off your head) seems like it coming from somewhere outside of your own mind.

Existance is all subjective. My universe is different to yours.

However... I also think that there is a REAL real world, but it is just made up of energy. We all interpret this energy in different ways and try to understand it in different ways. My evidence that the real world REALLY exists is that no matter how hard I try, I just can't walk through walls. I reckon in theory it should be possible (line up the gaps between my atoms with the gaps between the wall's atoms and off you go), but in practice it never seems to work out. Even if you beieve with all your might that there is no wall you still bump your head!

Maybe my belief in the reality of the universe is all that is stopping me from walking through walls, instantly teleporting to the next party or communicating telepathically, but it is pretty hard-wired into my conciousness and very difficult to break free of.

Originally posted by A Bad Joke

Descartes (the guy who said "I think therefore I am") walks into a restaurant and sits down at a table.

The waiter comes along and takes Descartes' order. The waiter then asks "Would you like some wine with your lunch monsieure?"

Descartes replies "I think not!" and dissapears!

So you're saying matter is just illusion and energy is the only true reality?

[TEK Tonic]

Originally posted by Space Master

So you're saying matter is just illusion and energy is the only true reality?

I'm saying that matter is just a human concept. We can only see and hear a very limited set of light radiation and sound vibrations. This is NOT the whole of reality. The table in fron of you doesn't have the essence of a table, it just looks like one to you because you have been trained to recognise that set of sensations as a "table" (there is no spoon!!).

Originally posted by Homer Simpson

What is matter? Never mind!

What is mind? Doesn't metter!

[Raj]

We have limits on our perception because we put them there - if you remove them there is lots more information out there

[TEK Tonic]

Originally posted by Raj

We have limits on our perception because we put them there - if you remove them there is lots more information out there

This is true but we are still limited by our five senses and our way of analysing information. Even if you can break down the limits we have imposed on our perception we will still not be able to experience ALL of reality.

[Playground Politics]

Theres a song about 2012, by a band called 4hero the song is called 12 tribes, it talks about 12 being the infinite number, it does talk about the mayan calendar ending in 2012, and asks what will hapen
it talks about most things being measured in twelves, loads about the pyramids being measured in twelves,

amazing theory

[DaNcInGalaxie]

sucha deluded question.n they say im mad.

[PHARTY]

Originally posted by Playground Politics

Theres a song about 2012, by a band called 4hero the song is called 12 tribes, it talks about 12 being the infinite number, it does talk about the mayan calendar ending in 2012, and asks what will hapen
it talks about most things being measured in twelves, loads about the pyramids being measured in twelves,

amazing theory

Must be why Ive got a 12 inch cock then ha ha I wish.

[tarifa]

Originally posted by PHARTY

Must be why Ive got a 12 inch cock then ha ha I wish.

size isn't everything darling, 12 inch too big, no fun!