G20 Police Brutality Update Thread

[MisterDuck]

I think it's important we don't lose the momentum and anger which was created after the initial events. This should remain in the spotlight because although the incidents were not unusual, they were of such a large-scale and were widely reported in the mainstream media, thus making them a possible catalyst for actual change and progression.

I'll have a search in a few minutes - basically any updates anybody hears about or even any interesting material relating to police handling, get it posted!

[photographthesun]

I know at the brighton events recently they were yet again accused of covering up their ID numbers etc but how accurate that is I couldnt be certain.

I find it hard to believe anything possitive will happen, just more stuff brushed under the carpet. The IPCC will make recomendations, the CPS will says theres no evidence, everyone gets a payrise.

[MisterDuck]

I know at the brighton events recently they were yet again accused of covering up their ID numbers etc but how accurate that is I couldnt be certain.

I find it hard to believe anything possitive will happen, just more stuff brushed under the carpet. The IPCC will make recomendations, the CPS will says theres no evidence, everyone gets a payrise.

The IPCC (who unfortunately have already been accused of corruption (http://www.guardian.co.uk/politics/2008/feb/25/police.law1)) will not do anything unless it remains in the media spotlight.

The incident would have been swept under the carpet entirely (remember the tabloids reported it a heart attack, cited the police claiming they had not had contact with Ian Thomlinson) until videos were sent to the mainstream media, thus forcing the Met to retract their bullshit cover-up story and promise an inquiry.

As much as the radical left hate the media, it is a free media, and whilst this has many downfalls as it tends to become dominated by populist opinions, it's something we will have to utilise.

Unlike many other things the left believe in, there can be a lot of empathy from people about the way the police act because it is a universal issue - police abusing their power isn't limited to protests.

Keep it publicised, keep it in the spotlight, and avoid them being able to sweep it under the carpet.

[photographthesun]

IPCC (Crisis at police watchdog as lawyers resign | Politics | The Guardian (http://www.guardian.co.uk/politics/2008/feb/25/police.law1))


Problems with the IPCC..


· A failure to provide effective oversight for the work of the police investigators who still handle most complaints;
· a pattern of favouritism towards the police with some complaints being rejected in spite of apparently powerful evidence in their support;
· cases of indifference and rudeness towards complainants;
· extreme delays, with some complaints remaining unresolved after years of inaction and confusion;
· key decisions being taken by casework managers who have no legal qualifications, little relevant experience and minimal training;
· investigators and senior commissioners failing to work effectively with the result that some decisions have had to be overturned with the threat of court action

oh great. Just when you think things cant get any worse.

[photographthesun]

Keep it publicised, keep it in the spotlight, and avoid them being able to sweep it under the carpet.

I just have no faith that will be anywhere near enough. I dont believe things will change for the better. Hope im wrong

[General Lighting]

although this might sound like conspiracy theory I am a former Civil Servant and know a fair bit about how things work from the inside.

I know it would be trivial for a combination of ex-coppers and pro-police/authoritarian right wing anti public sector types provided they have academic qualifications to get past selection processes to infiltrate a organisation such as the IPCC and essentially get themselves paid to undermine it..

another issue is Whitehall is a nice earner for a young ambitious graduate. Many people will do anything to hold on to a whitehall job and citizens come second.

[MisterDuck]

I just have no faith that will be anywhere near enough. I dont believe things will change for the better. Hope im wrong

People see no immediate change are therefore become apathetic and pessimistic. Change happens over huge periods of time, and I believe in certain aspects of change happening years after I'm gone. However the progression that leads to this change needs people with hope striving towards it, and even if they don't see the eventual results, they've served as a stepping stone.

Any major progression in history didn't happen overnight. There were people fighting to change peoples opinions about slavery for hundreds of years before there was real change, and it started to become a widely helf belief that slavery was wrong instead of vice-versa.

I'm sure a lot of the activists in the first years of the movement became apathetic and gave up, but obviously some didn't.

[General Lighting]

even the fact the IPCC ever exists and that cops have to do things like fill in stop and search forms and that they no longer always stop you for being non-white in a public place or just for being young is progress, compared to 20-30 years ago.

that said I still don't think there's much empathy from normal people. Most normal people what don't party or take drugs or protest only either have dealings with the cops if they break traffic laws, or are themselves a victim of crime. In the first case they often want cops to let them walk away even when they have driven in a dangerous manner - in the second they are often annoyed because cops can't catch everyone instantly of if they know who the offenders are, because they cannot take vigilanté action against them without getting nicked themselves.

[MisterDuck]

that said I still don't think there's much empathy from normal people. Most normal people what don't party or take drugs or protest only either have dealings with the cops if they break traffic laws, or are themselves a victim of crime. In the first case they often want cops to let them walk away even when they have driven in a dangerous manner - in the second they are often annoyed because cops can't catch everyone instantly of if they know who the offenders are, because they cannot take vigilanté action against them without getting nicked themselves.

Could be true, obviously I've only ever really lived up here, where it's different. We had the miner's strikes, and general support for miners and police tactics that were used are still remembered. I'm reading the Politics of the Police (relating to police and discrimination, for my Uni course) and it attributes the Northern working class strikes as one of the most important events for changing opinions on the police, obviously predominantly up North.

Any working class area up here won't trust police for shit, whether it's your 20 year old or 80 year old.

[photographthesun]

People see no immediate change are therefore become apathetic and pessimistic. Change happens over huge periods of time, and I believe in certain aspects of change happening years after I'm gone. However the progression that leads to this change needs people with hope striving towards it, and even if they don't see the eventual results, they've served as a stepping stone.

Any major progression in history didn't happen overnight. There were people fighting to change peoples opinions about slavery for hundreds of years before there was real change, and it started to become a widely helf belief that slavery was wrong instead of vice-versa.

I'm sure a lot of the activists in the first years of the movement became apathetic and gave up, but obviously some didn't.

I hope your right, perhaps things will change for the better over time.

[photographthesun]

Anyone know of any countrys that are any better? *fingers crossed*

[General Lighting]

Any working class area up here won't trust police for shit, whether it's your 20 year old or 80 year old.

this is true down south too, but the impression I get, particularly the snippets of life in Sheffield that people mention here is that all across England the traditional working class are being slowly eliminated along with the manufacturing industry and being made into a new "middle class".

there are as many "urban working class" areas down South as up North with the same problems as well as middle class people here what have been kicked off the ladder due to professional jobs going either to foreign nations or the North

for example I got a fax today from a large organisation where although we were dealing with lower paid admin staff in Suffolk, their finance department has been outsourced to Yorkshire.

What remains of the angry young men seems to either becomes a criminal underclass who destroy any empathy from their own communities by their own acts; and thus they either want "hard men" from the community to eliminate the scum or even reluctantly support cops doing so, particularly those Northerners what have done relatively well in life and worked their way up.

A few years back I worked with a old chap (well 50s), he was originally working class but went to uni, got jobs int he BBC and granada as an engineer - lived somewhere outside Manchester.

He told me about how GMP as recently as 2001 would willingly give a good kicking to scallies because the "laws were too PC" - he was 100% supportive and just wished he was fit and strong enough to join in, and that its a shame guns aren't allowed for normal people. He's not by far the only Northerner I've met with views like this.

A while back I also read a report many youngish men in pit areas were applying for the Police despite the history, as they sort of admired the hard man mentality in northern constabularies and reluctantly felt "well the miners put up a fair fight and lost, so maybe we should go for the winnign side".

[General Lighting]

Anyone know of any countrys that are any better? *fingers crossed*

no. some countries may seem "freer" but they have their own internal problems as well. in those countries what "stand up for themselves" they have armed constabularies and gendarmeries and also the opponents fight harder so activism can be lethal.

as an example there were lorry drivers strikes last year. In England, there was a small demo, a lot of cops but no real violence and the management backed down and gave a pay rise!

In Spain and Portugal, the scabs actually drove their lorries into the pickets and two people were killed (one in each country). Of course the scabs would have been nicked for this but all thats happened is two families will now lose people they love (one dead, another to prison) and this sort of thing is the cause of feuds lasting generations.

When people protest in foreign nations, its often routine for water cannon, baton rounds and even live rounds to be used as well as the same things British cops do.

Also, running away from our nation (assuming of course you are born here) is not the answer to the problems as it means that the authoritarians win. There are already rich white British born people emigrating from England to authoritarian nations and taking their money and resources with them because "England is too PC and lax on drugs, sex, morality etc..."

[photographthesun]

no. some countries may seem "freer" but they have their own internal problems as well. in those countries what "stand up for themselves" they have armed constabularies and gendarmeries and also the opponents fight harder so activism can be lethal.

as an example there were lorry drivers strikes last year. In England, there was a small demo, a lot of cops but no real violence and the management backed down and gave a pay rise!

In Spain and Portugal, the scabs actually drove their lorries into the pickets and two people were killed (one in each country). Of course the scabs would have been nicked for this but all thats happened is two families will now lose people they love (one dead, another to prison) and this sort of thing is the cause of feuds lasting generations.

When people protest in foreign nations, its often routine for water cannon, baton rounds and even live rounds to be used as well as the same things British cops do.

Also, running away from our nation (assuming of course you are born here) is not the answer to the problems as it means that the authoritarians win. There are already rich white British born people emigrating from England to authoritarian nations and taking their money and resources with them because "England is too PC and lax on drugs, sex, morality etc..."

Hmm, as I feard really. I think my first house will be an underground bunker where I can get the hell away from society.

[MisterDuck]

What remains of the angry young men seems to either becomes a criminal underclass who destroy any empathy from their own communities by their own acts;

Very true. It's the classic divide and conquer tactic that was Thatcher all over. You're right about many becoming a new "middle class", however the few left behind are now more socially excluded than ever. This is a direct result of Thatcherism and applies nationwide. There is also no common goal for the working class... whereas socialism and economic equality as a principle was fought for, after the battle was lost, all that's left is a complete apathy and frustration directed at nobody, thus causing crime within the local community itself, "leave them to destroy themselves" type thing. Unfortunately the BNP have been extremely opporunist and sly in that they have capitalised on the frustration and anger and directed it against immigrants rather than against capitalism that has bred the class system in the first place.

Also on a side note, when I talk about "the North" all the time, it's not because I'm trying to compete with other areas over who is more working class, more distrustful of the police etc. or anything, sometimes I realise it sounds like I'm trying to invalidate an argument - I'm not at all, the only reason I use the North as an example is because I'm ignorant about anywhere else, I've only ever lived here and around people from the North and somethings such as attitudes and general opinions you can't read up on Wikipedia...

[MisterDuck]

I hope your right, perhaps things will change for the better over time.

My point is, if you don't truly believe it will change, then you aren't contributing. Somebody has to believe and it will happen, the more people believing the quicker it happens. But it will eventually, either way.

Also a lot of people saying shit like "it won't happen, I'd like to see it but I don't believe it'll make a difference" are often making excuses to avoid any kind of localised or collective activism, "pub moaner" types.

[photographthesun]

My point is, if you don't truly believe it will change, then you aren't contributing. Somebody has to believe and it will happen, the more people believing the quicker it happens. But it will eventually, either way.


Im not convinced, I didnt believe the stop the war march would stop the war, but to say I didnt contribute when I spent the day marching and what not seems odd logic.

Surly it depends on so many factors to boil it down to, if people just beleived then it will happen, well its just seems a bit Disney to me. *shrugs* dunno

[joshd96320]

Im not convinced, I didnt believe the stop the war march would stop the war, but to say I didnt contribute when I spent the day marching and what not seems odd logic.

Surly it depends on so many factors to boil it down to, if people just beleived then it will happen, well its just seems a bit Disney to me. *shrugs* dunno

its always the general consensus that will happen. Its always the view of the majority that will get carried out eventually.

politicians are always looking for the majority vote to get what they want, and this is why news is so twisted sometimes... to get everyone believing it from their point of view so they get what they want

because its always what the majority wants is what happens


if the majority of people were still disagreeing with g20, drastic action would have been taken by now. But in reality, although bigged up by the media, only a minority in scale to the rest are actively disagreeing with the events of g20 protest

[MisterDuck]

Im not convinced, I didnt believe the stop the war march would stop the war, but to say I didnt contribute when I spent the day marching and what not seems odd logic.

I never said you didn't contribute, I said for some people it's an excuse.

Anyway, as I've already stated, social change is a long-term ambition, hundreds of horrific events will happen until the day when it becomes no longer acceptable for world leaders to get away with things.

And spending a day marching is all fine and dandy, but it's not realistically going to do anything. People need to change things in their local community through activism in small ways every day, not just turn up once a year to a mass protest.

Surly it depends on so many factors to boil it down to, if people just beleived then it will happen, well its just seems a bit Disney to me. *shrugs* dunno
I think you're entirely missing my point. I'm not some kind of unrealistic fluffy hippy that believes "if we simply believe it will change" and goes and sits up a fucking tree.

I'm saying you have to have belief to be an activist every day, you have to have belief otherwise you obviously wouldn't do it. Anyone working for local change in their own communities, be it climate change, social exclusion, equality... they will all see set-backs and countless frustrations, but they obviously have to believe that someday things will change otherwise they'd give up contributing to that someday.

[General Lighting]

I think its a lot more than marches - it means personal sacrifices etc.

the war happened because of people power too - there were fuel protests in 2000 when OPEC put up their oil prices (not just because of tax) and that was the main driver what made Blair take the risk of going into the war - to secure oil for the UK. TBH if he had had the bollocks to say the true reason only half the country or less would have disagreed...

Had Iraq fallen within months with a decisive victory, with no effective fightback from the insurgents all the oil secured for western interests and had petrol dropped to 50p a litre, Blair would be viewed as a military hero rather than a villain or even just a muppet.

With my own life, although I can see how getting a full license and a car (neither of which I currently have) would be convenient for stuff like parties/festies etc, I've lived without either long enough and don't need them - I am a single man with no children for one thing and am fit enough to cycle 25 or more miles if need be. I did think of getting a small motorbike but they actually use a lot of resources in their making (as much as motor cars) and cause pollution too, and all just for one person to be able to travel on a whim.

yes it means I have to "limit my horizons and freedom of movement" but so be it - at least I can put my hand on my heart and say I'm not contibuting to the need for the war.

another thing I've done is stopped always buying the latest gadgets (a sacrifice for a techie) I'm not a obvious eco warrior and don't attend protests (as most are in London, more non-essential travel!) but try to do my bit...

[photographthesun]

I never said you didn't contribute, I said for some people it's an excuse.

Anyway, as I've already stated, social change is a long-term ambition, hundreds of horrific events will happen until the day when it becomes no longer acceptable for world leaders to get away with things.

And spending a day marching is all fine and dandy, but it's not realistically going to do anything. People need to change things in their local community through activism in small ways every day, not just turn up once a year to a mass protest.


I think you're entirely missing my point. I'm not some kind of unrealistic fluffy hippy that believes "if we simply believe it will change" and goes and sits up a fucking tree.

I'm saying you have to have belief to be an activist every day, you have to have belief otherwise you obviously wouldn't do it. Anyone working for local change in their own communities, be it climate change, social exclusion, equality... they will all see set-backs and countless frustrations, but they obviously have to believe that someday things will change otherwise they'd give up contributing to that someday.

Ah sorry I see what you mean.

[MisterDuck]

its always the general consensus that will happen. Its always the view of the majority that will get carried out eventually.

politicians are always looking for the majority vote to get what they want, and this is why news is so twisted sometimes... to get everyone believing it from their point of view so they get what they want

because its always what the majority wants is what happens


if the majority of people were still disagreeing with g20, drastic action would have been taken by now. But in reality, although bigged up by the media, only a minority in scale to the rest are actively disagreeing with the events of g20 protest

I'm not entirely sure that's true. Surveys would suggest that the majority of the population would support capital punishment in extreme cases. However it would be political suicide for the main parties to suggest reinstating the death penalty.

I think the "voice of the majority" actually changes very little as a political voice. It's individuals that push things, apart from lynch-mob style hate campaigns the mass-majority tend to whinge but do little about it, and therefore don't have as big an impact as people might think.

And also, I think that when you have 2 million on the streets for the Iraq war (a huge percentage of the adult population) then you know the majority are against it, yet it didn't change anything.

At the moment there is little we can do in terms of nationalised or global immediate change, hence my repeated commitment to striving for change within communities.

For example, my list of effective and pointless:

Want climate change?
How about setting up better alternative transport in your area, either through lobbying or even practical activism, to create an incentive for people to ditch the car? People are not going to use public transport whilst it is so temperamental and expensive, so a realistic way to change mindsets would be to create realistic and feasible alternatives. Set up recycling centres or offer a service to sort recycling, drop round leaflets, set up a localised "freecycle" system where people exchange unwanted possessions instead of chucking them.

Alternatively, you could always go break into a school, then storm a power plant with the ambition of switching the entire thing off, pissing off the local population and spending more money and energy restarting the thing, making the general consensus from the local population that you've done more harm than good, and thus rendering the entire activity entirely counter-productive. Sure, you might get a buzz from it and enjoy being amongst the "right-on" hippies, but at the end of the day so-and-so from next door is still gonna leave all her lights on for no reason then use that 4x4 to drive down the street.

Want a more equal society?
Get involved with local community action - youth work, alternative opporunities, support groups and lobbying groups for unemployment, work with local businesses to create jobs in the community, encourage empathy and use a united community to support political change.

Don't go down to London for your one day a year and put a window through. Basically to cut it short much for the same reasons as above, it's counter-productive and does little to gain mass-support.

[photographthesun]

with regards to giving up a car and worrying about the enviroment, what is the point? The majority will never give up that freedom, China Asia are expanding so quickly that any tiney positive effect on the enviroment will be destryoed.

I think its very noble, I just dont understand how its ment to work on a pratical level, or is it deeper than that?

[joshd96320]

boothy, i see ur point.. but i dont believe politicians would get anywhere with their voice until people support them... its not political suicide if everyone agrees.... do u see what im tryna say?

however i agree that if one has an army then theyre obviously going to have leverage regardless of a majority belief

with regards to giving up a car and worrying about the enviroment, what is the point? The majority will never give up that freedom, China Asia are expanding so quickly that any tiney positive effect on the enviroment will be destryoed.

I think its very noble, I just dont understand how its ment to work on a pratical level, or is it deeper than that?

every little helps

[photographthesun]

every little helps

Not really

[MisterDuck]

Not really

Might as well just not bother then? After all it's never gonna happen.

Don't forget, people said that black people would always be below white people, and told the activists "it'll never happen" and "it's human nature".

Of course it will happen, just don't expect it to overnight, or without a bit of optimism.

[MisterDuck]

boothy, i see ur point.. but i dont believe politicians would get anywhere with their voice until people support them... its not political suicide if everyone agrees.... do u see what im tryna say?

Sort-of, and you are right in a way, if everyone agrees and more than that, strongly agree and are willing to fight, a politician would be stupid to go against it.

But say the vast majority support capital punishment (which some would argue they do) it would still be political suicide because of the progressive minority.

[General Lighting]

with regards to giving up a car and worrying about the enviroment, what is the point? The majority will never give up that freedom, China Asia are expanding so quickly that any tiney positive effect on the enviroment will be destryoed.

this isn't true. CN and Asia may be expanding but they are more environmentally aware than people realise, going back to ancient cultures.

The Chinese don't want to trash their own environment. the reason they are expanding is because of Western demand for cheap disposable tat which many of them would rather not make anyway, but they obviously can't afford to turn down the business, and would rather have less contracts making more durable goods with higher budgets than cheap plastic toyes etc. There was even a big meeting in Singapore a couple of years ago about this!

the recession has also created a new way of thinking in China - even the younger people are downshifting their lives rather than spending.

Many Indians also have a relatively low impact on their enviroment particularly in the rural areas, and again its down to the West - if places like Bangalore etc have become overcrowded much is because we as consumers insist on cheap services so work is outsourced there.

[photographthesun]

Might as well just not bother then? After all it's never gonna happen.

Don't forget, people said that black people would always be below white people, and told the activists "it'll never happen" and "it's human nature".

Of course it will happen, just don't expect it to overnight, or without a bit of optimism.

No we should bother to find another way that might achally work. Got to be better in a pratical sense than thinking tiny actions of no stastical significance might save the planet! However on a personal level I do think its a moral thing to do etc

[General Lighting]

its actually cheaper to save the planet which is as much a good reason for doing so as the recession deepens. This one is similar to those of 20-30 years ago (which I remember) but also is worse because natural resources are increasingly being depleted...

[photographthesun]

this isn't true. CN and Asia may be expanding but they are more environmentally aware than people realise, going back to ancient cultures.

The Chinese don't want to trash their own environment. the reason they are expanding is because of Western demand for cheap disposable tat which many of them would rather not make anyway, but they obviously can't afford to turn down the business, and would rather have less contracts making more durable goods with higher budgets than cheap plastic toyes etc. There was even a big meeting in Singapore a couple of years ago about this!

the recession has also created a new way of thinking in China - even the younger people are downshifting their lives rather than spending.

Many Indians also have a relatively low impact on their enviroment particularly in the rural areas, and again its down to the West - if places like Bangalore etc have become overcrowded much is because we as consumers insist on cheap services so work is outsourced there.

China not wanting to trash their own enviroment!? Im really not sure I agree with any of that, China wants to get rich and doent give much of a damn about much else (it has stated publically for example human rights arent a piroity, wealth is). They are oil based economys that are expanding so fast its hard to comprehend. There impact will only get worse, and it will get worse far faster than the west will get better almost certainly.

[General Lighting]

with regards to giving up a car and worrying about the enviroment, what is the point? The majority will never give up that freedom,

true but that freedom can be and is being taken from them. not by cops or feds or armies, but the downturn means an increasing number of people are finding it harder and harder to afford to keep a car on the road. This isn't going to get better in the short term...

[MisterDuck]

No we should bother to find another way that might achally work. Got to be better in a pratical sense than thinking tiny actions of no stastical significance might save the planet! However on a personal level I do think its a moral thing to do etc

Of course we need to look for alternatives, but until then we do need to change our tiny actions, of course we do! One of the big ways to persuade people is to show them how much money they actually save by basically cutting down on electricity usage. Of course we need to look for an overall alternative source of energy, but we also have to change the attitudes of the general population, starting locally.

I reiterate:


Want climate change?
How about setting up better alternative transport in your area, either through lobbying or even practical activism, to create an incentive for people to ditch the car? People are not going to use public transport whilst it is so temperamental and expensive, so a realistic way to change mindsets would be to create realistic and feasible alternatives. Set up recycling centres or offer a service to sort recycling, drop round leaflets, set up a localised "freecycle" system where people exchange unwanted possessions instead of chucking them.

Alternatively, you could always go break into a school, then storm a power plant with the ambition of switching the entire thing off, pissing off the local population and spending more money and energy restarting the thing, making the general consensus from the local population that you've done more harm than good, and thus rendering the entire activity entirely counter-productive. Sure, you might get a buzz from it and enjoy being amongst the "right-on" hippies, but at the end of the day so-and-so from next door is still gonna leave all her lights on for no reason then use that 4x4 to drive down the street.

[General Lighting]

China not wanting to trash their own enviroment!? Im really not sure I agree with any of that, China wants to get rich and doent give much of a damn about much else (it has stated publically for example human rights arent a piroity, wealth is).

This is true for human rights (and is the case world wide except many nations don't have the balls to say it) - but some environmental problems in China have reached a stage (as they did in Western nations 100 or so years ago) where they are endangering the health of new generations - i.e the next load of workers/soldiers etc. Basic survival instincts kick in at this point and China is not immune to the issues regarding peak oil and food shortages (which can also be caused by pollution).

Chinese environmentalists are even allowed to speak without being nicked or marginalised...

[globalloon]

because its always what the majority wants is what happens

not true, it's what the biggest minority wants that will happen

at national elections not much more than half the electorate vote and to win a convincing parliamentary majority the winning party only need a third of the votes cast (or one sixth of the available vote) under our current system

[globalloon]

This is true for human rights (and is the case world wide except many nations don't have the balls to say it) - but some environmental problems in China have reached a stage (as they did in Western nations 100 or so years ago) where they are endangering the health of new generations - i.e the next load of workers/soldiers etc. Basic survival instincts kick in at this point and China is not immune to the issues regarding peak oil and food shortages (which can also be caused by pollution).

Chinese environmentalists are even allowed to speak without being nicked or marginalised...

Chinese government were the 1st country in the world to start building energy neutral towns. (http://uk.reuters.com/article/environmentNews/idUKSHA27016120080623) and use a fraction of the energy, per capita, that USA and EU countries do. A fact that puts the west to shame when it comes to reducing climate change

sorry, thread hijack

[joshd96320]

not true, it's what the biggest minority wants that will happen

at national elections not much more than half the electorate vote and to win a convincing parliamentary majority the winning party only need a third of the votes cast (or one sixth of the available vote) under out current system

yes but thats still the majority since all those votes have united to vote for one where as all the other votes, although there may be more other votes will be spread out over more people / entities / whatever so its the majority still if that makes sense

brain is bit mushy again

[globalloon]

yes but thats still the majority since all those votes have united to vote for one where as all the other votes, although there may be more other votes will be spread out over more people / entities / whatever so its the majority still if that makes sense brain is bit mushy again


no, under our current system the winning party can receive less votes and still win more seat in parliament and so have the majority

imagine this is the election results

................lab......con....lib
exeter........3.........1.......2
newcastle...3.........1.......2
norfolk........1.........3.......2


if this was the whole county, labour would have 2 seats, conservatives would have 1 and libdem would have none, despite winning more votes than the conservatives.

do you see? our electoral system gives the minority power

[rumpus rhythm]

CN and Asia may be expanding but they are more environmentally aware than people realise, going back to ancient cultures.

After watching the Unreported World documentary a few weeks back about the huge open cast coal mining and associated out of control fires in NE india i would have to disagree with the above comment. Link below (i did do a search and did not see another thread but apologies if its already been discussed)

Unreported World - Series 2009 - Episode 7 - India: Children of the Inferno - Channel 4 (http://www.channel4.com/programmes/unreported-world/episode-guide/series-2009/episode-7)

The populations of asia have a very low environmental imapct (per capita) that puts westerners to shame as mentioned above but the industrial sectors seem to be out of control on evidence to date

[joshd96320]

no, under our current system the winning party can receive less votes and still win more seat in parliament and so have the majority

imagine this is the election results

................lab......con....lib
exeter........3.........1.......2
newcastle...3.........1.......2
norfolk........1.........3.......2


if this was the whole county, labour would have 2 seats, conservatives would have 1 and libdem would have none, despite winning more votes than the conservatives.

do you see? our electoral system gives the minority power

i getcha! soz for the misunderstanding ;p

[General Lighting]

After watching the Unreported World documentary a few weeks back about the huge open cast coal mining and associated out of control fires in NE india i would have to disagree with the above comment. Link below (i did do a search and did not see another thread but apologies if its already been discussed)

Unreported World - Series 2009 - Episode 7 - India: Children of the Inferno - Channel 4 (http://www.channel4.com/programmes/unreported-world/episode-guide/series-2009/episode-7)

The populations of asia have a very low environmental imapct (per capita) that puts westerners to shame as mentioned above but the industrial sectors seem to be out of control on evidence to date

Similar coal fires and mines exist in some parts of the USA, and it was only a few decades ago that conditions for miners in Britain weren't that good. Although the crushing of the strikes wasn't good, I expect had coal mining persisted in Britain - particularly during thatchos rabid free market ethos that Wales and some parts of the North wouldn't look too pretty today.

Industry will of course have negative environmental consequences worldwide but the population of Asia is divided about this (to the point of near civil war in some areas) and isn't entirely passive. There is is a definite resurgence in environmental awareness across Asia, and it does seem they are quicker at turning things around compared to the West and compared to even 10 years ago - as it seems nature fights back harder in that part of the word anyway.

Also they start from poorer populations without too many chances for middle class nimbys to whinge about big changes in the face of strong nationalised industries and strong governments - this can work both in positive and negative directions. It may take some unfortunate things to happen and population reductions where people learn the hard way, but this seems inevitable worldwide..

Also in many respects the global recession isn't that bad an occurence as it is slowing economic growth and demand for resources. Ever considered that at least one reason the Indians are using all that electric and thus needing the coal is to power the data centres for British companies what bangalored all their IT and call centre staff? Indians may not be able to match "western" eco standards yet but thats because their trading partners (the West) drive a hard bargain and and India's growth is built on the West's trade....

[rumpus rhythm]

Similar coal fires and mines exist in some parts of the USA, and it was only a few decades ago that conditions for miners in Britain weren't that good. Although the crushing of the strikes wasn't good, I expect had coal mining persisted in Britain - particularly during thatchos rabid free market ethos that Wales and some parts of the North wouldn't look too pretty today.

Coal fires reported as burning villagers out of their homes on masse and relegating them to coal scavengers is pretty bad and not really comparable.

Agreed that historical coal mining was bad in the UK but significant progress in technology is now available today that was not back then

(saying that even new technology is not adequate to persist in using coal as fuel)

[General Lighting]

Coal fires reported as burning villagers out of their homes on masse and relegating them to coal scavengers is pretty bad and not really comparable.

not in the UK as we never thankfully went that far with intensive coal mining - but similar things have happened in the much more advanced USA.

Centralia, Pennsylvania - Encyclopedia of Earth (http://www.eoearth.org/article/Centralia%2C_Pennsylvania)
Centralia PA Mine Fire - Coal Burning underground, Homes destroyed (http://www.offroaders.com/album/centralia/centralia.htm)

The wider situation in Asia is far from ideal but its not being totally ignored by the local population. They may not seem receptive to "western" ecological ideals due to the sheer strength of market forces, cultural barriers and an understandable desire to become "developed" nations but its not as if in the modern times environmental awareness is non existent..

516, Shades of Green (http://www.india-seminar.com/2002/516.htm)
http://yaleglobal.yale.edu/display.article?id=3250

anyway, the argument made that "its pointless saving the environment in the West because Asia is only going to trash it" and used as excuses for apathy and inaction is a dangerous one, which if adopted by both continents could easily make things much worse..

[binge]

Boothy- I'm loving what you're saying. However, I don't think we should pay too much attention to the coppers though, there's more important issues at hand. The OB will always do what they do, and we'll also just keep on doing our thing. They didn't act any differently from usual at G20- it's just we all had cameras. Surviellence society turning on itself!

If you really want to help, the Climate Camp legal team will be looking to raise 25-40k over the next few months to bring a judical review about the tactic of kettling at the G20. We're currently trying to work out how to get donations through the website without using Paypal so you can donate when that's sorted.

As for getting into activism- well done sir. Next Climate Camp national gathering is in Hebden Bridge on the 23rd-24th May (details on the website (http://climatecamp.org.uk/?q=node/468)). I'll see you there.

I'd love to talk more about this, but have to go and contact all the Friend of the Earth groups in London to invite them to an event discussing the History of Direct Action and why it's so important today.....

(Facebook event here if you're interested (http://www.facebook.com/home.php#/event.php?eid=72288838421))

[globalloon]

Boothy- I'm loving what you're saying. However, I don't think we should pay too much attention to the coppers though, there's more important issues at hand.

the politicising of the police is of real concern, but we should not be distracted away from the real criminals... banks, investment firms and political parties

[DJCliffy]

Centralia, Pennsylvania - Encyclopedia of Earth (http://www.eoearth.org/article/Centralia%2C_Pennsylvania)
Centralia PA Mine Fire - Coal Burning underground, Homes destroyed (http://www.offroaders.com/album/centralia/centralia.htm)



Not hijacking the thread but they filmed Silent Hill there. Would love to explore that place. :wink: