Luton Parade Protested by Muslim Extremists

O-D

12-03-2009, 08:57 PM

After the September 11 attacks in America in 2001, he displayed posters around the town celebrating the " Magnificent 19" hijackers. After the al-Muhajiroun group was banned and Bakri fled, he changed his name to Abu Saif.Deport the ass.

It was then that he met Bakri. Within two years, he had changed his name to Sayful Isman – which means Spirit of Islam – and had become a full-time activist, living off job seekers allowance.We fund religious activists praising violence, woo!

"They have killed, maimed and raped thousands of innocent people. They can't come here and parade where there is such a Muslim community."Fuck you, fuck you, fuck you. How dare you say that. I don't want your damn protests of burning effigys and placards demanding to behead anyone who insults your petty violent religion but that would be 'racist' wouldn't it?

Meanwhile a teenager who allegedly shouted racist abuse at the Muslim protesters has been charged with harassment.
Nathan Draper, 18, said that he was "maddened" at the actions of the Muslim demonstrators and praised the bravery of the soldiers and said they should be supported for risking their lives.
He has been charged with racially aggravated harassment and is due to appear at court next week.

Excepts from an article about the Luton parade by the Telegraph.
Full article here (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/4976105/Luton-parade-protesters-were-members-of-extremist-group.html)

With bullshit like is it's understandable that some would vote for BNP as they're the only group who actually acknowledges there's a problem, but then they're the BNP so they're not worth voting for. They're just a quick solution to a major problem and not what is needed in the long term.

I would protest against the attempts of changing our freedom of speech that is happening at the United Nations but I don't want want to get imprisoned for 'inciting religious hatred' or 'being racist' or whatever bullshit they come up with. However, it seems that we need to start doing this regardless as this is becoming too big to ignore.

This is not some phase of cultural integration.

This is a war against the Magna Carta, we cannot afford to lose it.

DJCliffy

12-03-2009, 09:16 PM

General Lighting

12-03-2009, 09:17 PM

its not possible any more to deport people who are born in the UK and are thus British citizens because they are behaving like scum.

Britain historically dumped a lot of its unwanted criminal scum on other nations (transportation) - slapped them about on prison camps; they then eventually brutalised the natives and built their own empires which is partly why the world is in such a mess anyway.

This is a war against the Magna Carta, we cannot afford to lose it.

its already been lost. It is a vastly overrated document - it only gave rights to landowners (barons) and their followers, not the common people (something both the Levellers and the Diggers pointed out in the 17th century!) and most of it was actually repealed hundreds of years ago during various political wrangles and has been replaced by more modern legslation in line with todays capitalist society.

In recent times, the terrorists have been so successful in striking fear into the governments of this nation that its last remaining part (the law on habeas corpus which means people shouldn't be detained without trial) is under serious threat.

O-D

12-03-2009, 09:19 PM

I actually had only the 'Freedom of speech' part of the Magna Carta in mind, sorry for the misunderstanding :hopeless:

General Lighting

12-03-2009, 09:21 PM

Mate seeing those dickheads protesting against our troops pissed me right off. Absolute disgraceful. What fucked me off even more was the fact the police PROTECTED them and let them carry on with their hate filled rubbish. I loved it when the rest of the crowd turned on the protesters, I wish the OB were not there as i would of paid good money to watch them get smashed up.

its the same as the feds having to protect BNP marchers...

if it had kicked off, with all the mobile phones available today both sides would have called for backup, and soon the whole of Luton and surrounding areas would have been alight with everyone taking sides and eventually a race war starting.

Loads of innocent people would have got hurt and / or lost property (rioters don't tend to trash their own cars!), and it would end up like some Northern or Midlands areas where communities are still divided after riots/disturbances 5 or even 10 years ago.

DJCliffy

12-03-2009, 09:27 PM

its the same as the feds having to protect BNP marchers...

if it had kicked off, with all the mobile phones available today both sides would have called for backup, and soon the whole of Luton and surrounding areas would have been alight with everyone taking sides and eventually a race war starting.

Loads of innocent people would have got hurt and / or lost property (rioters don't tend to trash their own cars!), and it would end up like some Northern or Midlands areas where communities are still divided after riots/disturbances 5 or even 10 years ago.

Ah so probably was a good thing the OB were there, (I'm not far from Luton!!) :wink:

O-D

12-03-2009, 09:32 PM

Freedom of speech can be seen as a tricky thing, but it's actually quite simple:

If you support it then you have to support the rights of people saying that the gas chambers in Auschwitz didn't exist or whatever.
The people who say these things may be wrong, and it may insult/offend but they have the right to say it and should not be criminalised for it.

I defend the right for people to make asses of themselves and not to be ordered to court for it.

DJCliffy

12-03-2009, 09:40 PM

General Lighting

12-03-2009, 09:45 PM

Wasn't a dutch(?) MP banned from entering the UK recently because of an anti-islam video he wanted to show the house of lords? Makes me laugh, The extremists can sprout their hatred publicly under police protection while someone doing the opposite is barred from the country. Funny old world innit! :you_crazy

yes, but I am fairly sure that in the same week or a similar timescale the Home Office banned him, an Muslim extremist and (for good measure) a black gangsta rapper who was well known for crime/drugs and glorifying this in his lyrics.

People pay lip service to "free speech" and "persecution" when something they agree with is stopped but are happy to ask the authorities to ban things they don't agree with.

TBH I think the Home Office is finally saying "enoughs enough" and starting to set boundaries, but where will it end? bear in mind websites glorifying drugs and drug culture are viewed by some to be as bad as militant muslims or right wing extremism or religious brainwashing!

DaftFader

12-03-2009, 09:51 PM

yes, but I am fairly sure that in the same week or a similar timescale the Home Office banned him, an Muslim extremist and (for good measure) a black gangsta rapper who was well known for crime/drugs and glorifying this in his lyrics.

People pay lip service to "free speech" and "persecution" when something they agree with is stopped but are happy to ask the authorities to ban things they don't agree with.

TBH I think the Home Office is finally saying "enoughs enough" and starting to set boundaries, but where will it end? bear in mind websites glorifying drugs and drug culture are viewed by some to be as bad as militant muslims or right wing extremism or religious brainwashing!
9wJsovPRTEM
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i know this is in america .. but almost the exact same thing is happening here

General Lighting

12-03-2009, 10:24 PM

i know this is in america .. but almost the exact same thing is happening here

the whole concept of todays "free speech" is very new, it only came about in my lifetime around the 1980s. Despite recent law changes, today in 2009 the Met "permit" all sorts of random protests in London which would have been closed down with force 20 years ago.

but the "freedom" we have today wasn't even real progress done with good grace, it was simply a by-product of the social experiments of Thatcher, who relaxed Government control over the media and electronics communications networks and starved the Police and other agencies of investment as an accidental part of her "free market" ethos to encourage capitalism.

it was not an attempt to give people more real freedom, Thatcher herself has expressed regret for the "way things turned out".

DaftFader

12-03-2009, 10:33 PM

the whole concept of todays "free speech" is very new, it only came about in my lifetime around the 1980s. Despite recent law changes, today in 2009 the Met "permit" all sorts of random protests in London which would have been closed down with force 20 years ago.

but the "freedom" we have today wasn't even real progress done with good grace, it was simply a by-product of the social experiments of Thatcher, who relaxed Government control over the media and electronics communications networks and starved the Police and other agencies of investment as an accidental part of her "free market" ethos to encourage capitalism.

it was not an attempt to give people more real freedom, Thatcher herself has expressed regret for the "way things turned out".as soon as the people that are in power of me .. (ie. the govenment that rules the contray i am living in)start talknig about my protecting my "freedom" i get suspisious .. as as it stands they seem to be the only ones restricting it
i know there are alot of worce contrys to live in with regards to freedom but what scares me is that in them contrys it is blatenly forced, in a violent way, onto them, where as over here alot of the time it's done with the majoritys concent as they are tricked into thinking they are beliving/voting for the right thing .. when really they are just falling into the trap and becoming pawns or the govenments games and are enpowering them beyond all belief and i feel this is much more dangerous in the long run than a violant govenment that every one disagrees with as it's also a form of brainwashing so people will get fucked over .. and like it!

General Lighting

12-03-2009, 10:42 PM

DaftFader

12-03-2009, 11:19 PM

Having lived through Thatcho's days I think its far worse than that, the majority of British people do not want total freedom and want a reasonably strong government. its not as if the bitch seized power via a military coup, and nor was the spin that full of lies etc, people voted for her knowing what she stood for, as previous to then the trade unions had flexed their muscles but pissed off the public by causing disruption to essential services such as rubbish collection, electric, water, telephones etc due to strikes. And there was a economic recession.

back then the Muslims would have been prevented from protesting, either by the Met SPG or the NF kicking shit into them (not much difference between the two) and it would have erupted into a race war, cops would have stormed in and beaten shit out of anyone what wanted to be stubborn.

and everyone would have just ended up hating each other for years anyway until they were forced to grudingly interact due to business pressures. TBH thats what happened in the 1980s anyway and how British society still operates 25+ years later.
yeah people seem to be happy to have there rites/freedom taken away in order to have what they dont belive in put to a stop ... and the thing that is the threat to the population seems to keep changing (slltho this is the second ressesion in 20 years) first ressesion .. so it al get tightened up like what you are saing .. then terror .. more laws ... we forget about that .. now another ressesion ... and the govenment will soon own most of the bank and god know else they are getting out of our missfortune .. and it goes on ...

General Lighting

12-03-2009, 11:34 PM

yeah people seem to be happy to have there rites/freedom taken away in order to have what they dont belive in put to a stop ...

yep it was as soon as their consumer society is threatened..

we had a recession in 2001 - before 9/11 but of course the attacks made things worse.

I don't think the terrorist threat has changed all that much, both the Irish Civil War (still unresolved) and Middle East funded terrorism was a risk in 1989 as they were in 2009 - the balance of each threat may have shifted but its still there. I don't believe the conspiracy theories - not when there is so much raw hate on the streets that any form of war/terrorism/conflict is possible anywhere if just a few young men get angry enough...

However I was thinking a few weeks ago about how in some respects its become like groundhog day and (other than technology) we've returned socially to how it was in 1988/89 - everyone (including lads what would have once partied together) forming factions, people going back to booze instead of pills (despite acid house good pills were hard to get), more fighting in the streets and people robbing each other even at "fun" places like raves...

but the problem I see is the carefree fun times of the 90s won't come back because they depended on abundant cheap energy (oil) and peak oil has passed, and (at least for me) using drugs to escape isn't a option as much as the issues are so strong no amount of substances lets me escape thiking about them..

I don't think the end of the world is coming but everyone is going to have to rethink a lot of aspects about how they live..

DaftFader

12-03-2009, 11:46 PM

yep it was as soon as their consumer society is threatened..

we had a recession in 2001 - before 9/11 but of course the attacks made things worse.

I don't think the terrorist threat has changed all that much, both the Irish Civil War (still unresolved) and Middle East funded terrorism was a risk in 1989 as they were in 2009 - the balance of each threat may have shifted but its still there. I don't believe the conspiracy theories - not when there is so much raw hate on the streets that any form of war/terrorism/conflict is possible anywhere if just a few young men get angry enough...

However I was thinking a few weeks ago about how in some respects its become like groundhog day and (other than technology) we've returned socially to how it was in 1988/89 - everyone (including lads what would have once partied together) forming factions, people going back to booze instead of pills (despite acid house good pills were hard to get), more fighting in the streets and people robbing each other even at "fun" places like raves...

but the problem I see is the carefree fun times of the 90s won't come back because they depended on abundant cheap energy (oil) and peak oil has passed, and (at least for me) using drugs to escape isn't a option as much as the issues are so strong no amount of substances lets me escape thiking about them..

I don't think the end of the world is coming but everyone is going to have to rethink a lot of aspects about how they live..i belive in some conspiracys and i think it's nieve to say that the govenment arn't out for there own interests and don't go about this in deciptfull ways (not that you were saing that).. i also know that there are real threats to us ..not every thing is make belive .. but i also belive that these threats are used as excuses to put exagerated laws into place ... used to cover up certain actions that in a peace full care free sociaty (hypatheticaly speaking) would be noticed alot more ... and if the govenment are using things like terrarsim as a guise to get what tehy want in other aspects of there reign .. then it stands to reason that they want to keep these "threats" active ones ... by "stiring shit up" ....

on the oil note.. my friend was telling me that they have found this abundance of solid or powdered methaine under the earth .. or some thing like that .. that packs alot more nrg than coal ... but weather the masses will ever get to hear/use this stuff to power there heaters is another thing

General Lighting

13-03-2009, 12:00 AM

i belive in some conspiracys and i think it's nieve to say that the govenment arn't out for there own interests and don't go about this in deciptfull ways (not that you were saing that)..

oh certainly stuff like the Bilderbergers, Trilaterial committee, Economic League etc exists, but I find it hard to now class them as "conspiracies" as it seems blindingly obvious that those with money, power and influence will do everything to hold onto it.

However I differ from what a lot of yanks think which is that there is one single conspiracy.

I think there are multiple factions of powerful people, divided particularly amongst "religious" lines who are using their followers as pawns in their games, hence all the war and terrorism, and that bored angry young men are drawn to extremism all across the worlds.

Others understandably don't want to let the freedom to travel as they please, to buy stuff for themselves and their kids etc slip away due to lack of resources, so they are prepared to go to war to secure these resources (i.e try and overpower other groups what want them) simply because conventional govt and business can't or won't negotiatiate fairer ways of sharing them out.

on the oil note.. my friend was telling me that they have found this abundance of solid or powdered methaine under the earth .. or some thing like that .. that packs alot more nrg than coal ... but weather the masses will ever get to hear/use this stuff to power there heaters is another thing

I think your friend means "tar sands". The problem with these is that it takes as much if not more resources and energy to extract useful product from these as is housed in them; and getting at them requires trashing really beatiful parts of Canada etc and is dirtier even than conventional coal mines (another thing that we could have kept in this nation and perhaps not been at war today!)

DaftFader

13-03-2009, 12:09 AM

oh certainly stuff like the Bilderbergers, Trilaterial committee, Economic League etc exists, but I find it hard to now class them as "conspiracies" as it seems blindingly obvious that those with money, power and influence will do everything to hold onto it.

However I differ from what a lot of yanks think which is that there is one single conspiracy.

I think there are multiple factions of powerful people, divided particularly amongst "religious" lines who are using their followers as pawns in their games, hence all the war and terrorism, and that bored angry young men are drawn to extremism all across the worlds.

Others understandably don't want to let the freedom to travel as they please, to buy stuff for themselves and their kids etc slip away due to lack of resources, so they are prepared to go to war to secure these resources (i.e try and overpower other groups what want them) because conventional govt and business can't or won't negotiatiate fairer ways of sharing them out.

yeah thats exactly what i belive when it comes to "conspiracys" .. it seems highly unlikely that there is one overall power that the queen, tony blair, brown, bush, obama, binladan, sadam,kim il jong and hittler all sit around in a secrit base some where and discuss over a nice cup of tea what they are gonna do tommorow (the same thing they do every day .. try to take over the world):laugh_at:. however i do think like you say there are a few smaller scale groups with alot of money and power bringing them together that are tring to wipe out other such groups with a goal to create total controll over everything. the most recent, ovious and close to home manifested it's self with the bush/blair "friendship" ..this seemed to me more than just an alliship (if thats even a real word) .. alltho in saing that i am sure that every power overlaps at some point .. eg. gun sales from oposing nations to fight allies ... ect. i don't think there is a global organizedness to it ..

General Lighting

13-03-2009, 12:38 AM

Another issue which hasn't yet been addressed is that there have been at least two such parades of homecoming troops in Woodbridge (a town on the outskirts of Ipswich) and Colchester as well as smaller parades in Suffolk.

Suffolk and Essex are just as multicultural as Bedfordshire, with a significant amount of Muslims particularly in the urban areas, as well as a fair few people from all cultures and races who are anti-war and attend various protests. The same goes for Norfolk and I think (am not 100% sure) there has also been a parade in Norwich which has similar demographics.

Yet - none of the military parades have been targeted by protesters of any kind. Seems like people here, for all their East Anglian stubbornness have the decency to look at the wider picture and put their opinions to one side and let soldiers and their families return from a war that no one really wants to have anyway but we as a nation have forced ourselves into due to our resource consumption patterns.

I do wonder if the protests in Luton are a escalation of other underlying tensions, and if Bedfordshire Constabulary have any sense they would keep close watch on all this.

MisterDuck

13-03-2009, 01:50 AM

supporting the rights of someone is different to supporting what they are saying, of course

see other thread for details

basically

give up our civil liberties, human rights and freedom of speech and the extremists have won.

the end.

benbear

13-03-2009, 04:05 AM

I don't miss Luton one little bit.

:hopeless:

DJCliffy

13-03-2009, 06:47 AM

I don't miss Luton one little bit.

:hopeless:

Luton's is a shithole.

DJCliffy

13-03-2009, 06:47 AM

I don't miss Luton one little bit.

:hopeless:

Luton is a shithole.

General Lighting

13-03-2009, 11:50 AM

I don't miss Luton one little bit.

:hopeless:

fair enough. but you've got all this going on where you are thanks to the efforts of extremists..

South Thailand insurgency - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/South_Thailand_insurgency)

I wonder though if people would be just as angry had the protestors been from the normal (i.e white british hippy) "anti-war" movement?

DJCliffy

13-03-2009, 06:17 PM

I wonder though if people would be just as angry had the protestors been from the normal (i.e white british hippy) "anti-war" movement?

Probably not cos AFAIK the hippies have not called for Sharia law in Britain and decapitations of non-believers and members of the armed forces. :wink:

General Lighting

13-03-2009, 06:28 PM

Probably not cos AFAIK the hippies have not called for Sharia law in Britain and decapitations of non-believers and members of the armed forces. :wink:

Theres also elements in the anti-war / ecological "professional protest" movement who certainly do have extreme views about veganism/animal rights etc and who would also would like a good ruck with the feds or squaddies or anyone else they don't agree with. I certainly remember in the 1980s many anarchist magazines advocated actual violence against opponents, to the point some were banned...

In the 90s that whole movement was "infiltrated" by footy hooligans what discovered drugs, the "brew crew" type of traveller as well as angry "macho" Europeans who realised they didn't get as much of a kicking from British cops as from european ones and they are all prepared to use force against those they disagree with. This isn't daily mail propaganda, its incidents I saw with my own eyes.

Every resident of this nation is as responsible for at least part the war and the deaths of innocents as any serving soldier, even if they don't openly agree with the Iraq invasion. We all make use of the energy and transport provided by middle eastern oil, even just to post this message

I'd still find it just as wrong if the anti war lot protested directly against homecoming troops as these militant Muslims. If people wish to protest they should do it on another day and at the correct targets which are the politicians who sent the troops to war..

DJCliffy

13-03-2009, 06:41 PM

DJCliffy

16-03-2009, 08:37 PM

It's gonna kick off in Luton soon. Watch this space. :hopeless:

O-D

16-03-2009, 10:57 PM

It's gonna kick off in Luton soon. Watch this space. :hopeless:

What are the whisperings of the dark side, Padawan?

DJCliffy

16-03-2009, 11:09 PM

What are the whisperings of the dark side, Padawan?

In Luton because of those protests, racial tensions are at an all time high. Several no white areas have sprung up and people are getting very pissed off with it all. There's also been a spate of attacks on non-Muslim populations and vice versa but it's mainly against the non-muslims. Something is brewing over there and i think it's going to erupt quite soon. :crazy:

Just hope whatever it is it doesn't spread over here, not that far from Luton you see and personally i'd rather it didn't, can't be bothered with all that bullshit! :hopeless:

benbear

17-03-2009, 03:24 AM

In Luton because of those protests, racial tensions are at an all time high. Several no white areas have sprung up and people are getting very pissed off with it all. There's also been a spate of attacks on non-Muslim populations and vice versa but it's mainly against the non-muslims. Something is brewing over there and i think it's going to erupt quite soon. :crazy:

Just hope whatever it is it doesn't spread over here, not that far from Luton you see and personally i'd rather it didn't, can't be bothered with all that bullshit! :hopeless:

Even when I was living in Luton we had violence between the two groups.
At the Luton carnival there was a big fight and I always heard about them meeting up for a war.
It has been brewing for a long time and sometimes does erupt into terrible things like stabbing and even gun fire.
I did notice when Exodus was partying in Luton the two groups and others seem to get on with each other, there was hardly ever problems and if there were it was sorted out quickly. Just shows it is possible for every one to have a peaceful town.
After Exodus stopped there hasn't been this place for the groups to mix together so ............................

DJCliffy

17-03-2009, 06:31 AM

After Exodus stopped there hasn't been this place for the groups to mix together so ............................

War it is. :hopeless:

benbear

17-03-2009, 10:56 AM

War it is. :hopeless:

I'm hope this will not happen. But there was and looks like there is so much hate in Luton now it could explode into this.

But as I said there was mutual respect in the old days between gangs and religions despite the fighting. I really believe Exodus had a huge part to play in this.
What I mean by mutual respect is we knew what could happen if it exploded into some Riot and we did have friends from these other areas. I went to school with many and again there was no problem. So despite fights and battles it was looked at that point and didn't over spill into the next day or worse into a race war. I'm not saying these fights were right, they seem to happen every where in the world.
The town has always been split into it's areas, which causes a focus on who is best, biggest and the hardest. This is something I have always wondered about, it seems to me fingers should be pointed at local governments, councils and I hate to say the police don't seem to help the topic in hand at all.

I hope for some peaceful end to this shit. I lived with it for 18 years being from Marsh farm my self.

Hopefully the young generation can find some way of bringing every culture, creed, colour and religion together again.

No matter who is wrong and right if it explodes into some race war they will be all wrong so let's hope for the best

:group_hug

A touching subject for me so sorry for my rant

benbear

17-03-2009, 11:19 AM

fair enough. but you've got all this going on where you are thanks to the efforts of extremists..

South Thailand insurgency - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/South_Thailand_insurgency)

I wonder though if people would be just as angry had the protestors been from the normal (i.e white british hippy) "anti-war" movement?

Fair enough. Does not mean I'm against this as well.

:laugh_at: I seem to end up in these places.

General Lighting

17-03-2009, 11:52 AM

what is really fucking annoying (more so if you are British Asian) is that the politicians, particularly the last Tory Goverment quietly encouraged all these lads to move to more disciplined following of religion (possibly even against the advice of cops and MI5) because they didn't like the way Asians were moving away from being "hard working businesspeople" and getting into drugs/partying

during the 90s I lived in Reading which was and still is ethnically as diverse as Luton, exactly the same tensions exist, only reason it doesn't kick off is because there is more money there...

the worst part of it is the only reason some nations (particularly SE Asia) don't have race war is because they have much more authoritarian govts, and if people don't check themselves thats exactly where we are headed in our lifetimes (and I mean the next 5-10 years, not when we are elderly)

benbear

18-03-2009, 03:52 AM

benbear

19-03-2009, 04:45 AM

YouTube - Protestors disrupt soldiers' homecoming march (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JXA-uQj0zfo)

!sinner69!

19-03-2009, 10:16 AM

I'd still find it just as wrong if the anti war lot protested directly against homecoming troops as these militant Muslims. If people wish to protest they should do it on another day and at the correct targets which are the politicians who sent the troops to war..

Thats where I think you are wrong(about the anti-war protesters); Every soldier that keeps feed this faul war with troops by signing the contract is wrongdoers. I think they need to be remined that they are not heroes! If no-one signed up for this war it will be cancelled for lack of interess.... The single individual responsibilty for this war is just as disgracefull as the politicians, in the first place it is their vote that put them into the parlament....

But as for the muslims(they are in their rights to belive what they want), I disagree with them as well. But to say what I really mean here on that issue would be not good or nice so I throw their allah in the bin together with god, santa-claus, trolls and other beings of the past....(too simplified maybee, but it covers my way of looking at things....the never ending story of religious rights contra freedom of speech and free living...)

General Lighting

19-03-2009, 11:43 AM

Thats where I think you are wrong(about the anti-war protesters); Every soldier that keeps feed this faul war with troops by signing the contract is wrongdoers. I think they need to be remined that they are not heroes! If no-one signed up for this war it will be cancelled for lack of interess.... The single individual responsibilty for this war is just as disgracefull as the politicians, in the first place it is their vote that put them into the parlament....

I never said anyone (even religious types) shouldn't protest - simply that it should be limited to a point where it does not cause an actual massive risk of civil disturbances across communities already divided by this war.

After all that protest in your country about the mohammed cartoons (which was stirred up by a right wing Christian newspaper) caused millions of crowns of damage and divided communities - it has taken away money from your public and private sectors, encouraged the people to elect centre right wing govts more hostile to things like Ungdomhuset, was any good whatsoever achieved by this "freedom?"

the reality is in the UK it all goes back to the people, all 30 million or so who are adults - civillians, soldiers and politicians alike. Every adult in this country has blood on their hands, even the supposed "anti-war" protestors, whether or not they even agree with the war. The soldiers may not be "heroes" but the people are even worse as they are making them go there.

In 2000 people in Britain used their "right to protest" to complain because the price of petrol/diesel had gone up. The right wing legitimate parties helped organise this protest, claiming it was due to the (then) more social democratic government imposing high tax levels on fuel, despite the reality being that the tax increases were set up by the conservatives and had stopped increasing in early 2000.

The real reason for the rise in fuel prices was because the OPEC countries had raised their prices as a group. So it was really what made the UK government join with the US to go to war in Iraq, Tony Blair did lie about "weapons of mass destruction", but TBH I feel if he had had the balls to say to the country "we are going to war to secure oil resources" the British people would still have accepted the war.

I have been in the 1990s involved myself with so called "political activism" in England and I just saw a lot of hipocrisy there - people getting involved in protesting simply because it was "cool" and better than being a football hooligan. here we get people start off as a left wing protester, then go to the right wing, then even support the radical Muslims - whichever one they think produces the best fights. Of course the protest "community" blamed MI5 (our domestic Security Service) and "infiltrators/agents provocateurs" but the reality is the cops stopped doing this sort of stuff in the 1980s - by the 90s it genuinely was burned out drug users and local thugs hijacking the protests.

Perhaps in Denmark and Europe people do not do this sort of treachery, but this is how our "activism" seems to exist in England hence why it rarely achieves anything good. (I deliberately stated England as the other UK nations seem to be better at positive activism!)

Those few activist groups what do achive positive stuff are often smaller, more equal in gender and concentrate more on real solutions (community gardens, bicycle workshops etc) than street protests - which by their very nature create conflict and opposition in the UK, often even amongst people what would normally support the cause - simply because its a small country here and blocking a road makes it difficult for people to get around.

DJCliffy

19-03-2009, 05:05 PM

Every soldier that keeps feed this faul war with troops by signing the contract is wrongdoers. I think they need to be remined that they are not heroes! If no-one signed up for this war it will be cancelled for lack of interess.... The single individual responsibilty for this war is just as disgracefull as the politicians, in the first place it is their vote that put them into the parlament....

Mate i think what you've written here is absolutely ridiculous. What about the good they are doing out there and in other places around the world, What about in the past when natural disasters have occurred and the armed forces have gone to help, were they wrongdoers or disgraceful then?

Have you actually looked into the change in Iraq? Iraqis have freedom, yes, freedom now. Saddam was a fucking monster and yeah fair enough we went to war under false pretences but now the Iraqis have the freedoms we all take for granted. I know an Iraqi (works for our company) He spoke against saddam back in the day and had to flee to the UK, his brother did as well but stayed, He was then murdered by govt officals. This fellow has now been back to his native country and says the change over there is incredible. He thanks god (allah to him) that the UK/US intervened and got rid of an evil regime, same probably goes for alot of Iraqis. But I suppose that was pretty disgraceful that happened eh, should of left em to it. I know we were fed a load of lies by the government for the war but i think it has and will work out well in the end. I don't find it wrong that Iraq is starting to become more stable nor do i find it disgraceful. Same goes for Afghanistan.

Don't think i'm having a go as everyone's entitled to their own opinion, i just found those to be a very poor choice of words. :love:

:wink:

O-D

19-03-2009, 07:00 PM

Correct me if I'm wrong but soldiers cannot refuse to go where they're posted, if they do then they're court martialled right?

Sinner you make it sound like there are no armies except for when a war is on and then people flock to sign up. The majority of the troops would have been in the army before the war begun so it's not like they had much choice.

General Lighting

19-03-2009, 07:25 PM

Correct me if I'm wrong but soldiers cannot refuse to go where they're posted, if they do then they're court martialled right?

yes, it would be classed as going AWOL or desertion and they would certainly be subject to military discipline procedures.

Sinner you make it sound like there are no armies except for when a war is on and then people flock to sign up. The majority of the troops would have been in the army before the war begun so it's not like they had much choice.if anything HM Forces are finding it difficult to get new recruits because its dawned on everyone that war isn't fun at all and people are getting killed.

Although DK's army has pulled out from Iraq it was there from 2003-2007, including Jægerkorpset (the danish equivalent of the SAS).

I don't see the current Danish people to be exactly "warmongers" or happy about the war (presumably why the units have withdrawn) but I think people reluctantly realised why it is happening - and are more clued up about energy shortages than in the UK.

Behind all the lies and spin, and the arguments over religion the harsh truth is that in all EU countries we are fighting this war to ensure that we can put fuel in our vehicles to travel as we please (including our non-essential travel to gigs/parties etc) - that we have 230V in our electric power grid 24/7 so we can use the internet and our telecoms equipment and post these messages, and that our consumer society that we still enjoy (even if we are left-wing) keeps going.

None of us may at present want to pick up a rifle and go to a foreign nation and intimidate other humans into handing over control of their valuable resources but by our own actions (even debating this online) we are responsible for putting the soldiers there. Soldiers, whether "friendly or enemy" are just pawns in a bigger game and we need to consider our individual and group actions.

Until we genuinely create a society less dependent on fossil fuels and free market capitalism (and I see no real solutions even in the long term) war will continue.