Does reality REALLY exist?

[TEK Tonic]

Right here goes...

A little while ago I was in a bad mood, quite stressed out, couldn't find anything else so I ended up digging up some old Salvia Divinorum and some old CO2 chargers and went for it. This is what happened...

I smoked about three pipes of Salvia so I was good and trippin then did a laughing gas balloon. The lights started to go out and I blissed out for (either an eternity or a split second, cant be sure which?). I had some very interesting thoughts about preception and the possibility that my mind really can sort out any physical problems with my body (I had some pain in my back that when I concentrated on it, clicked and the pain dissapeared). As I started to come round it was as if the layers of reality were peeling away (:you_crazy) and I had to choose which reality I was going to stop in.

Now when I try to explain this in English it gets a bit tricky, but let me give it a try...

When I opened my eyes I was sitting in my living room and the missus was lying on the floor (nothing unusual yet), but I just wasn't too sure if I was actually awake yet (which reality had I stopped at and was it the REAL reality?).There was a real possibility that I was actually still comatose on the sofa, I could have been dead or I could have been mad and dribbling while my girlfriend tried to wake me up, but in MY mind I was awake (a classic coma story, possibly straight out of "Life on Mars").

My immediate reaction was to ask my girlfriend to wake me up, she looked confused (who wouldn't if somebody looked you in the eyes and asked you to wake them up?), but tried her best to accomodate her tripped out boyfriend.

Now my logic said that if I asked her if I was awake, she is BOUND to say I am awake, just to keep me in my coma/dream world, so I had to get her to physically wake me up or I just wouldn't believe it.

I still wasn't convinced so I said she had to try harder, and REALLY wake me up. She gently slapped me about the face and said WAKE UP!!

Eventually, after several HUGE thoughts and some interesting conversation I asked my girlfriend if she had woken me up or if I had asked her to wake me up. Only when she said that I had asked her, did I believe that I had been awake in the first place and that reality DID actually REALLY exist as an external phenomenon rather than just an internal set of sensations.

Looking back on it now it makes me laugh really - Salvia is a very strong drug and shouldn't be mixed unless you are with somebody you trust implicitly. I am fairly sure reality does exist, but at the end of the day all I have to work with is a set of human senses and a human brain, neither of which actually confirm the existance of a REAL reality or work in a way that will allow me to understand the WHOLE of reality without my human dogmas and limits.

Like I say, I am now pretty sure reality exists, but does it REALLY exist?

PS. My back pain returned as the drugs wore off :cry:

[Space Master]

A m8 of mine once mentioned this place "before thought". He was big on Freud and Jung so l think it came from that psychology/philosophy.

Maybe that's where u were?

[TEK Tonic]

Hmmm. I'm pretty sure I was just in my living room tripping out, but maybe you are right (my experience did make me question most things including the validity of a drugs experience from the perspective of a human, I did some research and came to the conclusion that at the end of the day I was just off my rocker:crazy_diz !).

A m8 of mine once mentioned this place "before thought". He was big on Freud and Jung so l think it came from that psychology/philosophy.

Maybe that's where u were?

That reminds me of something me and the missus have been discussing recently...

Scientists say that they are close to discovering what the Big Bang was like and they seem to suggest that there was a whole lot of nothing before the BB took place.

I have always believed this until recently when I said it out loud and realised that the stuff that makes up the universe must have come from somewhere. Scientists also talk about "before time began". Again this just doesn't wash with me any more. There can't have been a time before time, there just can't be! It can't have been nothing at all, and then all of a sudden there is something, it just can't be!

Buddhists see the world in a more cyclical way and this makes perfect sense - the universe is constantly exploding and imploding again and again, moving away from itself and then comming back together again. This must go back into infinity and will go on into infinity.

No start of the universe. No end of the universe. Just a new cycle.

[Space Master]

Scientists say that they are close to discovering what the Big Bang was like and they seem to suggest that there was a whole lot of nothing before the BB took place.

Lol, that's like the eye trying to see itself. I doubt anything in the universe could unravel the universe. But if they give it a complicated name e.g. the "Prechronic hiatus" or something, it'll make it all ok.

Buddhists see the world in a more cyclical way and this makes perfect sense - the universe is constantly exploding and imploding again and again, moving away from itself and then comming back together again. This must go back into infinity and will go on into infinity.

That means reality exists then. I've noticed there's some definite cyclic thing going on, but instead of a circle it seems like a spiral, getting tighter and tighter. Have u noticed how fast musical trends are changing? That's why l reckon there's got to be a new type of music soon, it's due, within about 20 years at most, judging by how styles have changed in the past 100 years. And the seasons don't even seem to be cyclic any more - is it global warming or is it just the cycle tightening a bit?

No start of the universe. No end of the universe. Just a new cycle.

I was going to add something but then that thought led to something else and then something else and now my brain's got all this smoke coming out the bonnet garrrr

What if both sides are right? I mean ... why can't it switch back and forth from nothingness to existence to nothingness etc. forever.

[TEK Tonic]

I've noticed there's some definite cyclic thing going on, but instead of a circle it seems like a spiral, getting tighter and tighter. Have u noticed how fast musical trends are changing? That's why l reckon there's got to be a new type of music soon, it's due, within about 20 years at most, judging by how styles have changed in the past 100 years. And the seasons don't even seem to be cyclic any more - is it global warming or is it just the cycle tightening a bit?


I have heard a theory (Robert Anton Wilson I think) about the year 2012. Apparently the amount of "knowledge" humas have will double an infinite number of times in an infnitesimal moment some time in 2012 (if you do some complicated maths and project them into the future). In addition to this the Mayan/Incan callander (which is widely accepted as the most precise callander for predicting planetary allignment (or summink?!?)) actually runs out in 2012. In addition to this there is apparently a big pocket of methane (?) gas under the polar ice caps that will be released by global warming in... you guessed it... 2012.

I was going to add something but then that thought led to something else and then something else and now my brain's got all this smoke coming out the bonnet garrrr


Budhism has a lot to answer for!


What if both sides are right? I mean ... why can't it switch back and forth from nothingness to existence to nothingness etc. forever.

Sounds quite ordered, in a chaotic kind of way!

[rach]

firstly your trip sounds really mind bending, i'd love to have something that enlightening... except it would most likely to be just confusing to me!

if say 'reality' didnt exist; you are still able to have a thought process about the the exsistance of the 'concept of reality'... so then hasnt reality got some form of existence in the form of just the concept of itself... i'm not quite sure what i mean by that, but perhaps you would be having to question what it truly means to exist...

the 2012 thing is really interesting yet a little bit scary... guess i'll have to just party hard for the next 5 years!

[TEK Tonic]

if say 'reality' didnt exist; you are still able to have a thought process about the the exsistance of the 'concept of reality'... so then hasnt reality got some form of existence in the form of just the concept of itself... i'm not quite sure what i mean by that, but perhaps you would be having to question what it truly means to exist...


I think you're onto somethin there Rach. Reality is all in the eye of the beholder.

Mystic types talk about visiting other worlds, having out-of-body experiences and speaking with extra terrestrial beings who know stuff that they didn't.

I thought I was having an OOBE once, but then I realised I was looking at my astral self float away from my body (just another in-mind experience then?). I have never heard voices in my head that I didn't think were part of my own mind already, but I have looked into DMT entities and have come to the conclusion that they too are just your internal dialogue given some kind of personality that (when you are off your head) seems like it coming from somewhere outside of your own mind.

Existance is all subjective. My universe is different to yours.

However... I also think that there is a REAL real world, but it is just made up of energy. We all interpret this energy in different ways and try to understand it in different ways. My evidence that the real world REALLY exists is that no matter how hard I try, I just can't walk through walls. I reckon in theory it should be possible (line up the gaps between my atoms with the gaps between the wall's atoms and off you go), but in practice it never seems to work out. Even if you beieve with all your might that there is no wall you still bump your head!

Maybe my belief in the reality of the universe is all that is stopping me from walking through walls, instantly teleporting to the next party or communicating telepathically, but it is pretty hard-wired into my conciousness and very difficult to break free of.

Descartes (the guy who said "I think therefore I am") walks into a restaurant and sits down at a table.

The waiter comes along and takes Descartes' order. The waiter then asks "Would you like some wine with your lunch monsieure?"

Descartes replies "I think not!" and dissapears!

[Space Master]

So you're saying matter is just illusion and energy is the only true reality?

[TEK Tonic]

So you're saying matter is just illusion and energy is the only true reality?

I'm saying that matter is just a human concept. We can only see and hear a very limited set of light radiation and sound vibrations. This is NOT the whole of reality. The table in fron of you doesn't have the essence of a table, it just looks like one to you because you have been trained to recognise that set of sensations as a "table" (there is no spoon!!).

What is matter? Never mind!

What is mind? Doesn't metter!

[Raj]

We have limits on our perception because we put them there - if you remove them there is lots more information out there :groucho:

[TEK Tonic]

We have limits on our perception because we put them there - if you remove them there is lots more information out there :groucho:

This is true but we are still limited by our five senses and our way of analysing information. Even if you can break down the limits we have imposed on our perception we will still not be able to experience ALL of reality.

[Playground Politics]

Theres a song about 2012, by a band called 4hero the song is called 12 tribes, it talks about 12 being the infinite number, it does talk about the mayan calendar ending in 2012, and asks what will hapen
it talks about most things being measured in twelves, loads about the pyramids being measured in twelves,

amazing theory

[DaNcInGalaxie]

sucha deluded question.n they say im mad.

[PHARTY]

Theres a song about 2012, by a band called 4hero the song is called 12 tribes, it talks about 12 being the infinite number, it does talk about the mayan calendar ending in 2012, and asks what will hapen
it talks about most things being measured in twelves, loads about the pyramids being measured in twelves,

amazing theory Must be why Ive got a 12 inch cock then ha ha:groucho::wink: I wish.

[tarifa]

Must be why Ive got a 12 inch cock then ha ha:groucho::wink: I wish.

size isn't everything darling, 12 inch too big, no fun!:wink:

[PHARTY]

size isn't everything darling, 12 inch too big, no fun!:wink:I know I keep getting complaints ,we are talking Girth arnt we:weee::wink:

[globalloon]

sucha deluded question.n they say im mad.

his condition was a temporary experience induced by drugs. yours seem like an everyday thing

[PHARTY]

:hopeless:Wots reality? is it that wierd somtimes not very nice place that we go to when we dont have enough substances?

[tarifa]

I know I keep getting complaints ,we are talking Girth arnt we:weee::wink:


hehe . . . and attitude :groucho: . . . as in mischiveous :angel::devil_wag:angel:

[DaNcInGalaxie]

his condition was a temporary experience induced by drugs. yours seem like an everyday thingdont tell me who i am wen u havent a clue,looks like yal taken FAR TO many drugs.

*there DG pats u on your back! your reality will return one day.

[globalloon]

dont tell me who i am wen u havent a clue,looks like yal taken FAR TO many drugs.

*there DG pats u on your back! your reality will return one day.

stop being patronising. it is really boring

[cathdreadhead]

:hopeless:Wots reality? is it that wierd somtimes not very nice place that we go to when we dont have enough substances?

exactlerly wot i am thinkin

[cathdreadhead]

:hopeless:Wots reality? is it that wierd somtimes not very nice place that we go to when we dont have enough substances?

exacterly wot i am thinkin

[TEK Tonic]

his condition was a temporary experience induced by drugs. yours seem like an everyday thing

Cheers for the support Globalloon. This is exactly why I won't post on SJ.

Those crazy kids :you_crazy

[Playground Politics]

apparently if u think ur mad, ur prob not, but if it never crosses ur mind, u prob are ( a person who was mentally ill told me that)

[noname]

However... I also think that there is a REAL real world, but it is just made up of energy. We all interpret this energy in different ways and try to understand it in different ways. My evidence that the real world REALLY exists is that no matter how hard I try, I just can't walk through walls. I reckon in theory it should be possible (line up the gaps between my atoms with the gaps between the wall's atoms and off you go), but in practice it never seems to work out. Even if you beieve with all your might that there is no wall you still bump your head!

Maybe my belief in the reality of the universe is all that is stopping me from walking through walls, instantly teleporting to the next party or communicating telepathically, but it is pretty hard-wired into my conciousness and very difficult to break free of.
But we do eventually break free of the hard wired habits - the human race has been redefining it's place in "reality" all through our existence. Think about it:

5000 years ago, we all knew our small tribe and maybe a few nearby were all that existed - we could communicate with them (if we used the same language), and we could travel as far as our legs would let us. We had no concept of space, or worlds - everything above our heads was a mystery and ascribed to some god like force or other.

2000 years ago, and we had discovered the world was a much larger place - a flat disk in a firmament of stars (of which we were the center). Many things were still given a supernatural explanation, but we could (if very rich) send a message half way across the world. We had also discovered that previously mysterious things like diseases could be fixed with the application of science. Study of the natural world had revealed it could be manipulated given enough thought.

400 years ago, and suddenly the world had become a globe, spinning through a cosmos in which we were only a tiny part. Suddenly, great thinkers were redefining the boundaries of our reality. Laws describing physics, chemistry and biology using the rediscovered language of mathematics were invented - we could predict and design the world around us.

Between then and now - we've had revolution after revolution - agricultural, industrial, information. The atom has been split, and we found that there were more basic levels of matter and reality - the neutron, the photon, the quarks, neutrinos, gluons, electrons (and the hunt is still on). It's possible to communicate with the other side of the planet almost instantly, we can FLY there in a few hours if we want to... Men have walked on the moon, and orbit the earth constantly in an orbital station... Hell, that PC you are sitting at typing is a piece of technical wizardry that surfs the edge of reality in it's own right (how much info will that hard disk hold? How quickly can it calculate for you?)


Now imagine you are the person from 5000 years ago, coming forward to this time. Our reality has been redefined so much in that time, that you would be almost completely unable to comprehend most of it. It would all seem like some sort of magic, but the truth is that we have just remade our reality.

Walking through walls? Maybe it's hard wired at the moment, but maybe it's also because we haven't found the right redefinition yet. Would you dare to predict where we will be in a hundred years time? Or what reality might be then?

And what is the possibility that Bill Hicks is right, and we really are "one conciousness experiencing itself subjectively", and we really do create our own reality?

Just a few early morning thoughts....:wink:

[cathdreadhead]

thats a really good comment, interesting subject...can get a bit mind bending if I think about it too much tho..

[TEK Tonic]

Just a few early morning thoughts....:wink:

Hmmmmm. Pretty hardcore for 10:05 on a tuesday morning!

And what is the possibility that Bill Hicks is right, and we really are "one conciousness experiencing itself subjectively", and we really do create our own reality?


It's all relative innit?

Allow me to elaborate on my experience a little...

As I was comming back to consensus reality I could feel/see levels of reality slipping away from me. There was a reality where I was dead, another where I was a gibbering wreck, another where my back was fine, another where everything was hunky-dory, but a bit trippy. Eventually I settled on one reality and I think I have been here ever since (pretty much).

As you can tell, this is quite difficult to explain in english, but I hope you get the picture.

Like I say, it's all relative innit?

Maybe I need to take more drugs in order to walk through walls, or MAYBE I need to take more drugs in order to THINK I have walked through a wall?!?!?!?!!?!

Meybe, just maybe I should take less drugs and then...

Ahh bollocks to it - it's all part of the colourful tapestry innit?

[noname]

As I was comming back to consensus reality I could feel/see levels of reality slipping away from me. There was a reality where I was dead, another where I was a gibbering wreck, another where my back was fine, another where everything was hunky-dory, but a bit trippy. Eventually I settled on one reality and I think I have been here ever since (pretty much).

Maybe I need to take more drugs in order to walk through walls, or MAYBE I need to take more drugs in order to THINK I have walked through a wall?!?!?!?!!?!


Maybe the whole multiple universe thing is right then - and you were seeing yourself in other places, having made other decisions. The theory goes that existence plays out every possible permutation of everything that could possibly happen, all at the same time. So every decision, every random direction change of a quantum particle is played out all at once, and destiny/causality/reality isn't so much a constant, as a direction that we pick out through each decision and movement. But each time we make a decision, reality splits, and we also follow the other possibilities (as a seperate conciousness - or possibly parts of one conciousness with the illusion of seperation...:crazy_diz)

Hmmmmm....

[TEK Tonic]

Exactly!!

[PHARTY]

I just refuse to let realality get in the way of my life:love: also correct spelling has no part in my life also.

[JulesDogg]

Does reality REALLY exist?

The question has no meaning at all.

[GiantMidget]

Does reality REALLY exist?

The question has no meaning at all.

Tis a strange one innt! :weee:

[JulesDogg]

Tis a strange one innt! :weee:

Damn right Cliffy

[JonnyQuest]

Does reality REALLY exist?

The question has no meaning at all.

replace really with actually

[GiantMidget]

replace really with actually

Replace actually with Sherbert lemon drops

[MisterDuck]

when i start thinkin that stuff it makes me think "if this isn't actually real, nothing matters" and that's not a good mindset, so i try not to go that deeply into philosophy

[JulesDogg]

when i start thinkin that stuff it makes me think "if this isn't actually real, nothing matters" and that's not a good mindset, so i try not to go that deeply into philosophy

Does reality ACTUALLY exist? The question still has no meaning.


Boothy, i think you're right nothing is actually real. 'Nothing matters' - it all matters very very much. The paradox.

[noname]

Does reality ACTUALLY exist? The question still has no meaning.


Boothy, i think you're right nothing is actually real. 'Nothing matters' - it all matters very very much. The paradox.
I disagree that the question has no meaning - it has meaning, just no definite answer....

The question of wether anything matters is an entirely different one though - on a personal level there is no reason to believe that your experience has no basis in reality (the question of wether reality is real or not has no satisfactory answer after all, so the logical way to proceed is to assume it is until you get that satisfactory answer. After all, if it turns out that it is real then you have lost nothing, and equally if it turns out that it isn't, you have lost nothing..:wink:)


Hmmm - more early morning thoughts... :crazy:

[process]

yes. but that doesnt mean there is not a whole load more shit to be discovered... the only thing everyone can be sure off is that we are never getting the whole picture.:you_crazy

[JulesDogg]

I disagree that the question has no meaning - it has meaning, just no definite answer....

Noname, could you please explain what the question is asking? It makes no sense to me at all.

[tarifa]

havent time to look at all other posts but to answer the question does reality really exist?

yes

its everything you see, think, hear, feel, do

reality is subjective to the subject in question

so every single being entity etc etc experiences that which they experience and that IS reality

the next question is are realities the same?

the answer to that is no

but that's the way it works :love:

[JamesBong]

havent time to look at all other posts but to answer the question does reality really exist?

yes

its everything you see, think, hear, feel, do

reality is subjective to the subject in question

so every single being entity etc etc experiences that which they experience and that IS reality

the next question is are realities the same?

the answer to that is no

but that's the way it works :love:

Glad this reality thing is sorted, nice 1

[tarifa]

Glad this reality thing is sorted, nice 1

yup :love:

[noname]

Noname, could you please explain what the question is asking? It makes no sense to me at all.
It's an old philosophical premise that has been discussed fairly endlessly throughout history (the most famous example being that of Renee Descartes - "Cogito ergo sum", or "I think therefore I am", from his Meditations on first philosophy.)

Basically, the idea is that because we experience the universe through the medium of our senses, interpreted by our brains, and every evidence we have of the existence of those experiences is from this interpreted evidence - we have no way of truly knowing if any of it has an objective reality (ie a reality outside of our minds). It is perfectly possible that none of what we are experiencing really exists at all, and it is all a creation of our own imagination - in fact, it is possible that we don't even exist at all (which is the reason for Descartes first philosophy of "I am thinking, therefore I must exist")....


We as a general rule make the assumption that reality must exist (because it would be fairly counter productive from a survival stand point not to), but it is interesting to wonder wether it really does have an objective existence, and to discuss the nature of that existence - who knows what the discussion may come up with.... (I didn't start the thread btw - I have just been waffling about it - something I do well...:wink:)

[JulesDogg]

Noname, the reason I can't really understand the question is because it is impossible to stand outside of so-called 'reality' and make an objective observation. What we collectively describe as 'consensus reality' could be (probably is) a complete illusion. Our senses and our brains can only delivery a minute portion of the information out there. I am not so sure that our senses tell us much about reality.

Tarifa put it well stressing that reality was a product of the senses and subjective. I can accept this as well as accepting that the senses tell us nothing. Contradictory! I know, but that is the nature of this unanswerable question.

With a question like this if you think you have the answer you almost certainly don't. Have to ask it though.

[Jon 79]

Back in 2002:
The first time I took magic mushrooms, I'd just watched The Matrix the night before.
With the film fresh in my mind, I came to the conclusion that it was real. ... or at least that it's premise was real.
I thought reality does exist but, it could actually be a false reality.
...Then I came to the conclusion that was mentioned earlier: That I cannot necessarily trust my senses, because I was on drugs. ... I figured that anything I perceived whists tripping, wasn't necessarily there. ...Which made me realise that that concept was valid when I wasn't tripping.
Only one thing I knew for sure: I exist. I think therefore I am...
...It was at this point that I thought it'd be a great idea to show my housemate the end of the film Dark Star. :crazy_diz

Nowdays I realise reality exists for everyone who is conscious/capable of thought. All our realities differ because we are all unique, and though we can perceive the same things in the same way, everyone of us has a unique perspective of the world we live in.

[JulesDogg]

I appreciate, and to a degree agree with, reality being a subjective product of our thoughts, feelings, senses and perceptions. On the other hand, I have a huge problem with the idea that reality just that. I get a pervasive feeling that as conscious entities it is our very senses and perceptions that create the all enveloping illusion that we call reality whilst actually obscuring the truth behind the veil.

In essense that is why I struggle to make sense of the original question.

It's one of the 'big' questions, and we all have to ask it, but do the answers, ideas or conclusions we draw actually have anything meaningful to tell us?

A very reliable source once said to me 'There are no questions and no answers, it is what it is'.

[Jon 79]

I appreciate, and to a degree agree with, reality being a subjective product of our thoughts, feelings, senses and perceptions. On the other hand, I have a huge problem with the idea that reality just that. I get a pervasive feeling that as conscious entities it is our very senses and perceptions that create the all enveloping illusion that we call reality whilst actually obscuring the truth behind the veil.

In essense that is why I struggle to make sense of the original question.
If you died, would the universe still exist?
If the whole human raced passed away, would the earth still be here?
If all life in the universe suddenly ceased to be, would there still be... ahh, what's the point?

;)

[noname]

If you died, would the universe still exist?
If the whole human raced passed away, would the earth still be here?
If all life in the universe suddenly ceased to be, would there still be... ahh, what's the point?

;)

If a tree falls in the forest when no-one is near, does it still make a sound?

:wink:

[DaftFader]

If a tree falls in the forest when no-one is near, does it still make a sound?

:wink:
we have had this in another post i can't be bothered to explain it again .. but if you looks for a post with that tital then you will find the knowlage you are after and become enlightened :weee:

[JulesDogg]

If a tree falls in the forest when no-one is near, does it still make a sound?:wink:

Noname, the oldies are always the best. I thought about this for 918.976 days. I concluded that if it cannot be heard then there was no sound.

[MisterDuck]

Noname, the oldies are always the best. I thought about this for 918.976 days. I concluded that if it cannot be heard then there was no sound.

There is no sound.

"Sound is the vibration of matter, as perceived by the sense of hearing."

If no ear is around to convert that vibration into sound, then there is no sound, only the vibration of matter.

Bear in mind that it doesn't exclusively mean a human ear.

[DaftFader]

There is no sound.

"Sound is the vibration of matter, as perceived by the sense of hearing."

If no ear is around to convert that vibration into sound, then there is no sound, only the vibration of matter.

Bear in mind that it doesn't exclusively mean a human ear.

my point exactly :bounce_fl

[MisterDuck]

The real question is: is there a soundwave? :laugh_at:

[JulesDogg]

The real question is: is there a soundwave? :laugh_at:

The 'other' real question is: is there a perceiver?:surprised

[DaftFader]

The real question is: is there a soundwave? :laugh_at:
there is a waveform yes .. and it is in the audible range of the human ear .. but it's only called a sound wave because when you are in hearing distance from it you can hear it as sound ... every thing is a wave light micro waves sound every thing basicaly has it's own freqancy of wave ... the only reason it's called a sound wave is because we hear it as a sound ... esentualy it is just a wave but in the freqency range that humans have dubed sound waves...

[JulesDogg]

there is a waveform yes .. and it is in the audible range of the human ear .. but it's only called a sound wave because when you are in hearing distance from it you can hear it as sound ... every thing is a wave light micro waves sound every thing basicaly has it's own freqancy of wave ... the only reason it's called a sound wave is because we hear it as a sound ... esentualy it is just a wave but in the freqency range that humans have dubed sound waves...

Daft, is this moving towards 'string theory'?

[Jon 79]

There is no sound.

"Sound is the vibration of matter, as perceived by the sense of hearing."

If no ear is around to convert that vibration into sound, then there is no sound, only the vibration of matter.

Bear in mind that it doesn't exclusively mean a human ear.

...perhaps a squirrel heard it fall?
Although with no-one else around, who's gonna believe him?

[MisterDuck]

...perhaps a squirrel heard it fall?
Although with no-one else around, who's gonna believe him?

I was presuming "nobody" meant no living creature. If a squirrel heard it fall then the last sentence applies and yes it would make a sound.

Really the question is phrased awfully, but then most of the time it's used rhetorically.

[noname]

ROFL - the thread moves from the sublime to the ridiculous (or perhaps it was the other way round)...:crazy_dru:crazy_dru:crazy_dru

Have to say - I'm with Mr Pratchett on the tree question - When is a forest ever empty? There is always something to hear it so it always makes a noise.....

And the sound of 1 hand clapping is "cl" (or possibly "ap")...:wink:

[spark_plug]

i havent even bothered looking at this thread yet cause even the title is too much of a headfuck for me:crazy: :crazy:

[DaftFader]

Daft, is this moving towards 'string theory'?
it will do if i get asked any more questions about it :laugh_at:

[Jon 79]

Really the question is phrased awfully, but then most of the time it's used rhetorically.

Ahh, but is any rhetorical question truly rhetorical though? ...(you don't have to answer that)

[MisterDuck]

Ahh, but is any rhetorical question truly rhetorical though? ...(you don't have to answer that)

But do I have to answer it?

[Jon 79]

But do I have to answer it?

No, you don't. ..and what's more, ...you shouldn't!*



*Though you can if you want to.

[Raj]

There is only here and now

[GiantMidget]

I created reality. There you go, I've solved the riddle for everyone.:weee:

[JulesDogg]

I created reality. There you go, I've solved the riddle for everyone.:weee:

I really do think you do create reality Cliffy :weee: . I reckon we've all got a hand in it somehow.

[Jon 79]

There is only here and now

Surely there's also there and then?

[Raj]

Can you live those moments rather this one now? They could so easily be a creation of your mind.

[sirstonealot]

Right here goes...


Now when I try to explain this in English it gets a bit tricky, but let me give it a try...





If you have a full blown ego destroying trip, there is no way to explain where you have been and what you have seen... words just aint enough.




That reminds me of something me and the missus have been discussing recently...

Scientists say that they are close to discovering what the Big Bang was like and they seem to suggest that there was a whole lot of nothing before the BB took place.

I have always believed this until recently when I said it out loud and realised that the stuff that makes up the universe must have come from somewhere. Scientists also talk about "before time began". Again this just doesn't wash with me any more. There can't have been a time before time, there just can't be! It can't have been nothing at all, and then all of a sudden there is something, it just can't be!

Buddhists see the world in a more cyclical way and this makes perfect sense - the universe is constantly exploding and imploding again and again, moving away from itself and then comming back together again. This must go back into infinity and will go on into infinity.

No start of the universe. No end of the universe. Just a new cycle.

I used to be a die hard atheist, then I had a life changing trip.

Read up on the mayans and you will see they describe things as a cycle, I have read in depth about ancient south american civilisations and IMO they knew more than we ever will.

There shamans used phscadellics to see things, also check out the wikepedia entry on salvia AKA sage of the seers it's belived to be a cultigen and is still used by mayans today.

firstly your trip sounds really mind bending, i'd love to have something that enlightening... except it would most likely to be just


Its easy enough to do but not advisable, just destroy your ego and all sence of yourself via the phsycadellic of your choice.




[

[JulesDogg]

Very interesting lecture on 'the primacy of consciousness'

M8AXmJdmzfM&NR=1

[pixiegirl]

Laughing gas always kicks the shit out of me when I'm tripping. As I come round from it I it's always the same. I realise thatI am focusing on one area of my perception, be it vision, hearing etc... and that perception has divided itself into 4 pieces. 3 pieces are always "off" while one piece is "on" (I know that doesn't make too much sense) and the pieces flick back and forth between the on and off position faster and faster they seem to be coming to a position where all pieces will be on but when it reaches that point my perspective changes so that I am viewing it from the other side, now the on and off are further from each other than every before and the process repeats until I come round in a state of confusion wondering what is going on.

It is generally the case the the point of vision or sound that I was focused on it minuscule although it appears all encompassing to me while I'm focused on it.

I doubt that makes any sense to anyone but me!! :laugh_at: