Does Chaos exist? Does Order exist?

[Space Master]

Does Chaos (randomness) really exist?

Or is it just really complex order?

Ppl sometimes say well look at a river, the water flows chaotically. But does it? Isn't it just really complex order?

Ppl sometimes say look at fractal images, they can be chaotic. But are they truly chaotic/random? The only way to prove it is to expand the sample size to infinity, then you can prove that the formula doesn't repeat itself.

Ppl sometimes say look at random number generators on calculators. But you would have to generate random numbers forever to prove that the sequence of numbers doesn't repeat itself. And in fact some calculators do start repeating themselves within a few hours.

Does Order exist?

And what is order? Why can't order be called chaos? And what if order, when followed through forever, just dissolves into randomness, and the order that you saw was actually a random glitch that looked like a recognisable, ordered sequence?

Border of Order

If there are isolated bits of chaos in the universe, then what does the border between chaos and order look like? Is it really possible to have a border between chaos and order? Cos surely, when chaos hits the border with order, it becomes ordered, because it sticks to its border.

If a little island of chaos suddenly appeared in an ordered universe, wouldn't it instantly engulf the whole universe, because there can't be any border between order and chaos?

Similarly, if a little island of order suddenly appeared in a chaotic unverse, wouldn't it instantly engulf the whole universe, because there can't be any border between chaos and order? :weee:


Oh yeah, also: I reckon that the reason why some victims of serious crime try to speak with the perpetrator of that crime is because: They can't bear the thought of the slightest bit of chaos existing in the universe, because that would mean the whole universe is chaotic, because there can't be a border between chaos and order. Chaos = not understanding why the criminal did what he did.

[SD]

Im sure I had this whole thing sussed once in a K hole, unfortunately I cant remember what I worked out, but it had something to do with quantum theory.

[Raj]

:crazy_fre

Does it actually matter? Does the search for some form of order in the events in life improve our ability to live it or is it yet another way of distracting ourselves from the now?

:crazy_fre

nice to see you on the board SD :)

[SD]

:crazy_fre

Does it actually matter? Does the search for some form of order in the events in life improve our ability to live it or is it yet another way of distracting ourselves from the now?



Perfickly put mr Raj

Aint been around for a while, been partyin lots an stuff hope ure all good!:love:

[Stevie_big_words]

:crazy_fre

Does it actually matter? Does the search for some form of order in the events in life improve our ability to live it or is it yet another way of distracting ourselves from the now?

personally as an existentialist i think no. as far as human activity and order is concerned, research "determinism"....

[Raj]

like the sig :weee:

:bounce_fl Theres only one way of life and thats your own :bounce_fl

raaaraaaraaa

[Space Master]

:crazy_fre

Does it actually matter? Does the search for some form of order in the events in life improve our ability to live it or is it yet another way of distracting ourselves from the now?

:crazy_fre

nice to see you on the board SD :)

Yerr, it matters to me.

The search for some Order of course matters to some / most / all people (whichever of those options it may be). For example, timetables, routines, blah blah blah you know the score m8.

I gave an example of when someone MIGHT act from a need for Order: some victims of serious crimes MIGHT want to reach out to the perpetrator for that reason. MAYBE.

But that's just a spin off from the main question about the nature of Chaos and Order, not what ya do with it, but what IS it, does it even EXIST. And it was a question, i.e. a discussion point.

I was talking equally about Chaos and Order, not just about Order. I never even said we need Order. Please re-read the post :weee:

In lieu of a solution to the conundrum, or an interesting spin-off e.g. existentialism (which is well deep) humourous replies are, as ever, most welcome! :crazy_dru

[Stevie_big_words]

like the sig :weee:



raaaraaaraaa

haha nice one man, "the levellers: one way". dont particularly like them but thats a fat line!

[Raj]

:crazy_fre

I did read the post :wink: :flowers:

I think you create the universe as you believe it is - most people will discard the information which does not support their theories and remember what does....

It is the mind which is involved in the perception of how the world behaves and, to me, the consideration of order/chaos as regards events is the mind chattering to itself. It stops me from being truly in the moment of now if I allow it to. Many events simply are - the attempt to rationalise their why is futile and does not change the outcome of those events. They simply happened and nothing I could have done myself would have stopped them doing so.

[Not sure my self expression here is going to get the point across - let me know if it is unclear and I will have another go :wink:]

[Stevie_big_words]

of course there is order. look at natural selection from which natural order is created. things that are seemingly random can in fact be in some kind of order. Take the chaos theory for instance. if u look at a hill or a mountain u think its jus there, randomly however using maths and geography u can actually calculate how that mountain came to be there. therefore something seemingly random has in fact came about through order; different things influencing and eventually causng that mountain to form over time

[Stevie_big_words]

It stops me from being truly in the moment of now if I allow it to.

[Not sure my self expression here is going to get the point across - let me know if it is unclear and I will have another go :wink:]

no i understand what ur sayin mate. i think. basically thinking about such matters is irrelevant because not only does it stop u focusing ur issues on what u need to be focussing on in ur life on a day to day basis, but also whether things happen naturally, randomly or chaotically they still happen. so its irrelevant HOW they happen because whether or not u no the answer they still, just happen!

actually struggled a bit at the end there to get the point accross too!

[Stevie_big_words]

double post

[TEK Tonic]

By it's very nature the order of the universe is chaotic.

There is no border because they exist together. As you said:

If a little island of chaos suddenly appeared in an ordered universe, wouldn't it instantly engulf the whole universe, because there can't be any border between order and chaos?

Similarly, if a little island of order suddenly appeared in a chaotic unverse, wouldn't it instantly engulf the whole universe, because there can't be any border between chaos and order?

But...

When they simply co-exist then the wonderful, exciting, random, unexpected, predictable, patterned, beautiful universe we live in is created. :bounce_fl

And just for the record, thinking about it is worth it because if you come to the conclusion that everything isn't written already and it isn't just random, then you can make free choices about your life.

Even if you ended up thinking this thought as a result of everything that happened to you before this point, you now have the power to make your own mind up about who you want to be, how you want act and what you want to do.

Quite liberating really! :love:

[Stevie_big_words]

And just for the record, thinking about it is worth it because if you come to the conclusion that everything isn't written already and it isn't just random, then you can make free choices about your life.

Even if you ended up thinking this thought as a result of everything that happened to you before this point, you now have the power to make your own mind up about who you want to be, how you want act and what you want to do.

Quite liberating really! :love:

i don't really understand what ur trying to say in this bit??

[TEK Tonic]

Let's give it another go...

The big debate is free will v's determinism.

Free will would suggest that the universe is random because we can randomly decide to do something out of the ordinary.

Determinism would suggest that the universe is ordered so no matter how hard we try we could never do something that we weren't going to do already. Consciousness is just a set of chemical reactions going on in your brain and chemicals interact in predictable ways.

So...

If it's not all free chaos and it's not all determined order then is MUST be a combination of the two.

I am determined to make free choices and face the consequences if I make the wrong decision.

It's easy to say that I am free and I can make any choices I like, but you have to ask why did you make that decision? Is it because of something else that happened earlier in your life? Why do I like apples, but am not so big on oranges? I don't know but I feel like I make a free choice every time I buy apples!

However, now that I have noticed I always buy apples, I think next time I will buy oranges - free will in action, chaos within order.

I am determined to eat, but today I will eat oranges!

I am determined to live my life, but I think today I will live it with a smile on my face :wink:

Hope this helps?

[Playground Politics]

are u stoned dynamic

[Stevie_big_words]

I am determined to make free choices and face the consequences if I make the wrong decision.

the above comment relates directly to free will tho, and not determinism at all even tho u sed the two co-exist. u've used the word "determined", but it doesnt relate to determinism in any way. wat u have jus claimed is that free will and determinism exist together, and then written in the above comment that u use free will..

with determism all our actions and consequences hav been determined already through an unbroken chain of events (order).

with free will we are free to make decisions (chaos).

therefore the two theories can in no way co-exist. its an oxymoron saying i'm free to make decisions, but these decisions and outcomes have already been predetermined.

[TEK Tonic]

Fair comment.

But part of being human is that we HAVE to make choices and if I choose to commit a crime I will be held responsible for my actions.

Nonetheless, no matter how hard I try I just can't choose to fly unaided.

I totally believe in free will, but I also know that it has it's limits which is why I think that chaos and order co-exist.

If you take this argument to it's climactic logical end you will always end up staring absolute determinism in the face. I just think that there is room for free will in a determined universe.

An oldschool philosopher (I can't remember his name) once said something along the lines of:

"Why, Lord, do you force me (determinism) to have free will (freedom)?"

[Digital-A]

i have respect for people looking for the answers which i think in most cases are unanswerable and is pointless to search for something you will not find but thats me.

[Raj]

'If you find not what you seek within yourself how will you recognise it anywhere else?'

[Digital-A]

i go through life as it comes, i dont seek to find answers to questions centuries old ....

[Stevie_big_words]

But part of being human is that we HAVE to make choices and if I choose to commit a crime I will be held responsible for my actions.)

yes that is using free will..

Nonetheless, no matter how hard I try I just can't choose to fly unaided

no that is because flying unaided is an impossibility????!!!

"Why, Lord, do you force me (determinism) to have free will (freedom)?"

forcing someone to do something is not determinism at all. its forcing someone to do something. like i sed determinism is a theory in which it is believed that all ur actions are already pre-determined by an unbroken chain of events. forcing someone to do something is just making someone do something. i dont no what ur gettin at there...

[TEK Tonic]

Flying unaided is just an extreme example of determinism. I can't fly just like I can't lift a tonne of scrap metal because my body isn't strong enough, but I have seen other people do it. I know my limits.

The quote is from a guy talking to God (the guy/gal who determines everything if you are into that sort of thing). I guess another way of describing God's will could be fate or destiny.

Destined to be free.

[Stevie_big_words]

Flying unaided is just an extreme example of determinism. I can't fly just like I can't lift a tonne of scrap metal because my body isn't strong enough, but I have seen other people do it. I know my limits.

no. u can't fly because u don't hav wings. you can't pick up a tonne because you aren't strong enough. fact. it has nothing to do with determinism whatsoever.

The quote is from a guy talking to God (the guy/gal who determines everything if you are into that sort of thing). I guess another way of describing God's will could be fate or destiny

if ur talking about the judeo christian god then ur wrong. according to scripture he does not determine things, because we have free will because adam and eve ate from the tree of knowledge. he KNOWS everything, does not determine everything.

[TEK Tonic]

As you said:

Take the chaos theory for instance. if u look at a hill or a mountain u think its jus there, randomly however using maths and geography u can actually calculate how that mountain came to be there. therefore something seemingly random has in fact came about through order; different things influencing and eventually causng that mountain to form over time

Order in chaos.

As I said:

But part of being human is that we HAVE to make choices and if I choose to commit a crime I will be held responsible for my actions.


Chaos in order.

I think we are basically saying the same thing, but from different sides of the fence.

Interesting debate though :crazy_diz

[Stevie_big_words]

well yeh obviously man. u can have order in nature, and you can have free will with humanity, thats a gibbon really. wat i was gettin at in return to ur comment on "u r determined to have an apple so u take one" is that in making moral decisions u CANNOT have determinism and free will at the same time.

[TEK Tonic]

It's difficult I'll grant you, but it can be done.

If you decide to do something that you find morally objectionable you have broken down all of the boundaries.

Have you read "The Diceman"?

[Stevie_big_words]

no actually i havn't mate, although it has been recommended to me before. I do hear where your comming from, however the thing is if u do something that you feel is morally objectionable, like killing a cat; according to determinism it has already been determined that u will do this thing. According to free will u have chosen to do this thing.
surely you can't be predetermined to do something and choose to do it in the first place?! because the whole back bone of determinism is that you have no choice. and the back bone of free will, is all about the fact that you have choice. two completely diametrically opposed concepts.

[TEK Tonic]

two completely diametrically opposed concepts.

Or oposite ends of the same scale?

If they are exact opposites, they have some kind of relationship. Just like up is nothing more or less than a distinct lack of down - they co-exist.

Sometimes the decisions we make are more free while other decisions are more determined.

[SD]

*pauses and reminds himself to save this thread for future reference*

[Stevie_big_words]

how can something be "more predetermined" are you saying that some things are predetermined and some aren't??

fair play, yes up is nothing more or less than a distinct lack of down. however u cant put this forward in the topic of free will because we either have it, or we dont. we cant be pre determined to do somethings and some not as that would break the unbroken chain of events that makes determinism wat it is.

[TEK Tonic]

If we accept that basically humans run programs just like computers (info goes in, gets processed and chucked out the other end as determined actions) and we also accept that through self-hypnosis, we can change the programs within our own minds (read up on it - I highly recommend "Monsters and magical sticks, there is no such thing as hypnosis". Just do an Amazon search) humans have the capacity to make decisions about the determined way they live their lives.

You CAN re-program your mind to work the way YOU want it to work.

This is a skill that humans have because we are aware of ourselves and we can analyse our own behaviour. If the thought to change your behaviour came from within yourself, no matter how it got there in the first place, YOU chose your own destiny.

[Stevie_big_words]

YOU chose your own destiny.

yeh, thats free will. you;ve chosen your own destiny. in no way can it be predetermined if u hav chosen it. u hav used ur free will. otherwise it would hav bin predetermined and u havn't chosen fuck all.

with the theory of determinism ur destiny has already been decided, therefore u cannot choose ur own destiny, because it has already been chosen....

[TEK Tonic]

It's a fair cop.

Which one do you choose then?

If you believe in freedom then you believe in chaos, pure and simple.

If you believe in determinism then you believe in order, pure and simple.

No borders.

[Space Master]

are u stoned dynamic

Nooo i haven't smoked the babylon herb in ages :( l find the stuff very more-ish.

By the way, l've changed my name to something more humble and realistic hehe.

[Space Master]

:crazy_fre

I did read the post :wink: :flowers:

I think you create the universe as you believe it is - most people will discard the information which does not support their theories and remember what does....

It is the mind which is involved in the perception of how the world behaves and, to me, the consideration of order/chaos as regards events is the mind chattering to itself. It stops me from being truly in the moment of now if I allow it to. Many events simply are - the attempt to rationalise their why is futile and does not change the outcome of those events. They simply happened and nothing I could have done myself would have stopped them doing so.

[Not sure my self expression here is going to get the point across - let me know if it is unclear and I will have another go :wink:]

Actually l've just understood what you meant, very good. Living purely in the present, regardless of labels and whatnot. I think there's a word for that philosophy, but l can't remember it. I think it's called Yoga? Not sure.

[Stevie_big_words]

free will mate. no fate, no destiny just free will. i'm off but its bin real interestin chattin to u about this, i'm sittin an A level in ethics in a few weeks and one of my papers is directly on Free will and determinism so its bin cool gettin into a discussion bout it and hearin ur ideas.

[TEK Tonic]

The title for my dissertation at Uni was "Free Determinism - A Cognitive Science answer to the question of Freedom". So likewise it has been a very interesting discussion for me too.

Good luck in your exam.

Later Days

[Space Master]

Great Steve, at least you won't be sitting there at the exam just making stuff up that may or may not have been true, like me during my exams!

Ok, here goes:

Example 1: 34513450269825672857689465294875683476527846584365 23

Example 2: 4350934590346985604895621

Example 3: 30914350915609524507

^^^ Is that chaos or order? Can you prove it either way?

And as for chaos and order living in harmony and intermingling to create the rich variety of life...

l dunno how that can happen because what's the border between chaos and order like? Where they meet, one or the other has to stop existing.

People have made nice imgaes of mountains from fractal generators, but when you get down to it, a mountain isn't ordered, think of the topsoil, the bumps in the sides of the mountain, the dust particles, the molecules in those dust particles, the electrons whizzing around in those molecules, and so on.

Re: Free will and determinism ... l reckon they're both true. Your left could be someone's right, that's the way i see free will and determinism. Maybe that's what Chaos and Order are, as Raj actually hinted at... just points of view, perspectives on the same thing.

Example 3: 30914350915609524507 << could be Chaos, could be Order, or it could just be "30914350915609524507".

[Space Master]

The title for my dissertation at Uni was "Free Determinism - A Cognitive Science answer to the question of Freedom".

Was that Computational Neuroscience? To create a real android you would definitely need some random number generator at the core of its circuits, something that generates Chaos. Or generates Order. I dunno which of the 2, l suppose you can't tell if it was Chaos or Order until the android's dead and the sequence has stopped generating ...

[MisterDuck]

i'm not on nearly enough psychedelic drugs to even contemplate an answer to that :laugh_at:

[Stevie_big_words]

The title for my dissertation at Uni was "Free Determinism - A Cognitive Science answer to the question of Freedom"

fucking hell mate, then it certainly has bin good practice for me! ethical sparring! :weee:

[Raj]

Actually l've just understood what you meant, very good. Living purely in the present, regardless of labels and whatnot. I think there's a word for that philosophy, but l can't remember it. I think it's called Yoga? Not sure.


Zen is what most people call it :flowers:

[TEK Tonic]

Hi SpaceMaster, sorry we hijacked your thread. I have been thinking about this for a couple of days and have decided to post one more time to try to explain what the fuck I was going on about...

Re: Free will and determinism ... l reckon they're both true. Your left could be someone's right, that's the way i see free will and determinism. Maybe that's what Chaos and Order are, as Raj actually hinted at... just points of view, perspectives on the same thing.


You hit the nail right on the head - this is called Relativity theory and it basically states "different strokes for different folks" and it came about because light can be measured as BOTH waves AND particles (eventually some clever person suggested we should call them waveicles). The reason I started talking about free will/determinism is because it is a handy metaphor for order/chaos (Free will is like a small part of chaos in an otherwise ordered universe).

I guess I was trying to make the point that BOTH order and chaos really exist. It doesn't just have to be one or the other (even if this does mean there are borders where the worlds colide, it doesn't mean the end of the ordered/chaotic universe).

At this point I also wanted to bring Quantum Theory into the debate - When you get right down to it, the bits that make up the universe cannot be measured in the same way we measure the rest of the universe, they are not DEFINITELY here or DEFINITELY there, instead they have a tendancy to exist (or they probably exist here, but they might exist there).

If you apply this to Order/Chaos then order probably exists here, and chaos probably exists there. No positive, definite, black/white answer, just a probability, and if each one is just as likely to exist, then the best way to describe them is to say they both exist... in the same location... at the same time... probably! - just a beautiful merging of two classically oposed ideas. The border between them must look something like a K-Hole on Acid (blank but colourful, a gradual merging of probabilities/possibilities into the perceived ordered/chaotic universe). I think I saw it once, but it was probably just my interpretation of the situation.

Zen is what most people call it :flowers:

If you don't believe me read "The Tao of Physics" - it's a doozzy!

Hope this clears up the question for you. :crazy:

PS My degree was in Cognitive Science, but you are right to say "Computational Neuroscience" which was certainly a major part of it because I wanted to learn more about my more psychedelic experiences.

[phogeyman]

have you seen film called what the bleep

[TEK Tonic]

have you seen film called what the bleep

Good innit!

[phogeyman]

yeah well worth a look .90 % water mate ! :bounce_fl

[Space Master]

The reason I started talking about free will/determinism is because it is a handy metaphor for order/chaos (Free will is like a small part of chaos in an otherwise ordered universe).

I guess I was trying to make the point that BOTH order and chaos really exist. It doesn't just have to be one or the other (even if this does mean there are borders where the worlds colide, it doesn't mean the end of the ordered/chaotic universe).

I wrote a really long reply but then pressed a function key on my keyboard and ended up going back to the original post, and lost the reply i typed lol.

Ok, l'll just remember what i typed...

I still don't understand how there can be a border between Order and Chaos.

Probabilities is fine, but probabilities imply that something DOES exist. So back to existence, Chaos or Order, which is it.

As far as we are concerned it's all probabilities, but l meant what is actually there?

Free Will vs. Determinism - nice metaphor, not quite perfect, though, as it's at a different level to the basic Chaos vs. Order level.

Same goes for Good vs. Evil, or Red vs. Blue. Those things are all higher up than the basic Chaos vs. Order level.

[TEK Tonic]

Free Will vs. Determinism - nice metaphor, not quite perfect, though, as it's at a different level to the basic Chaos vs. Order level.

Same goes for Good vs. Evil, or Red vs. Blue. Those things are all higher up than the basic Chaos vs. Order level.

Fair play, but metaphors is all I got :wink:

Probabilities is fine, but probabilities imply that something DOES exist. So back to existence, Chaos or Order, which is it.


Erm, dunno - I'm only human :groucho: (I only have my 5 senses and my way of understanding things to go on)

But is it REALLY real?

[Raj]

@space master

if that happens to you again try "ctrl z " as it may undo the last edit.....

[tarifa]

Isn't it intrinsically impossible to create order?

The argument being that in doing so you just create more chaos so . . .

(the argument against why he should tidy up believe it or not!)

[Space Master]

Isn't it intrinsically impossible to create order?

The argument being that in doing so you just create more chaos so . . .

(the argument against why he should tidy up believe it or not!)

eh? I don't get that...

[tarifa]

eh? I don't get that...

No I'm not sure I do, only I had a very physics/philosophy partner who swore blind that it is absolutely impossible to create order.

The argument as far as I understand it is this -

the very action involved in creating order out of mess/chaos will itself create more mess/chaos. In effect all you are doing in moving the mess/chaos from one place to another, creating more as you go!

S got some posh theory name but I can't remember it (probably havent explained it very well either fraid I'm a bit allergic to physics eewwww!)

I'll try an find out, in the mean time how bout the other brains around here, you have any idea what I'm describing? And don't just say QUANTUM!

[Space Master]

Order doesn't have to come from Chaos.

Mind you they could take turns, but l don't know how one switches to the other.

I think you're talking about entropy. The amount of entropy in the universe is always increasing, no matter what you do. Entropy = disorder / chaos. You can create order by putting in energy, or so they say. I don't see how that works though, as l don't reckon Chaos can be proven to exist in the first place, and l don't think Order can either.

So maybe ur friend was saying, if u smash a ceramic vase, it will never be back to its original order again, so similarly, no matter how much you tidy up, the original order is lost forever and the disorder from that point will forever increase.

But l'm not sure if a smashed vase is actually disordered or not, technically speaking.

And face it, the original settings are linked to time, so saying that the original vase will never be the same again is kinda fallacious, because you'd have to go back in time to make that vase the same again.

Even if the vase were untouched, it would be more disordered than it was exactly 2 seconds ago. How much more disordered? There's no real sliding scale for disorder (there is a system in chemistry but l think it's tied to temperature or something and l never understood it) so any disorder is unimaginably large, so every passing second does monstrous things to the vase even if you don't touch it.

I think you have to just learn to block it all out and still put things in the dustbin despite the tragic disorder that still prevails!

By the way, the globe on your avatar is spinning the wrong direction!




No I'm not sure I do, only I had a very physics/philosophy partner who swore blind that it is absolutely impossible to create order.

The argument as far as I understand it is this -

the very action involved in creating order out of mess/chaos will itself create more mess/chaos. In effect all you are doing in moving the mess/chaos from one place to another, creating more as you go!

S got some posh theory name but I can't remember it (probably havent explained it very well either fraid I'm a bit allergic to physics eewwww!)

I'll try an find out, in the mean time how bout the other brains around here, you have any idea what I'm describing? And don't just say QUANTUM!

[tarifa]

By the way, the globe on your avatar is spinning the wrong direction!

I know but I didn't like to say anything as it was made for me as a prezzie by a friend, and i love it anyway, my head's been spinning the wrong way for years so maybe he made a deliberate mistake hmmmmmm . . .

An I still think that this is all just a really random excuse for not doing the tidying up! :wink:

[noname]

Order doesn't have to come from Chaos.

Mind you they could take turns, but l don't know how one switches to the other.

I think you're talking about entropy. The amount of entropy in the universe is always increasing, no matter what you do. Entropy = disorder / chaos. You can create order by putting in energy, or so they say. I don't see how that works though, as l don't reckon Chaos can be proven to exist in the first place, and l don't think Order can either.

So maybe ur friend was saying, if u smash a ceramic vase, it will never be back to its original order again, so similarly, no matter how much you tidy up, the original order is lost forever and the disorder from that point will forever increase.

But l'm not sure if a smashed vase is actually disordered or not, technically speaking.

And face it, the original settings are linked to time, so saying that the original vase will never be the same again is kinda fallacious, because you'd have to go back in time to make that vase the same again.

Even if the vase were untouched, it would be more disordered than it was exactly 2 seconds ago. How much more disordered? There's no real sliding scale for disorder (there is a system in chemistry but l think it's tied to temperature or something and l never understood it) so any disorder is unimaginably large, so every passing second does monstrous things to the vase even if you don't touch it.
Order and chaos do come from each other, and do both exist. They are 2 sides of the same coin, because they are both human concepts (much like good and evil or large and small) - essentially what was once called "constructs of mind" (can't remember which philosopher came up with it).

Humans define things in terms of what they are not as much as what they are, and our experience gets filtered and translated by our brain, which needs contrasting as well as similar experiences - essentially we work in opposites. Every human idea has it's opposite, because that is the root of our concious thought process (to be self aware, we needed a concept of "I" - which requires the definition of "not I").

The argument of wether the various concepts we create actually exist or not becomes one that is essentially irrelevant - everything we experience is translated by our brains, so the whole of existence for each of us could be a creation of our minds (which may not even exist themselves logically - the concept of self being a creation of the mind as well). At this point in the logical process, it's advisable to get out and push, and remember what Mr Pratchett wrote - Logic is all well and good, but there are times it doesn't beat actual thought.....:wink:

And actual thought says that the universe does exist, as do I because I am experiencing it. It also says that my sitting room is in chaos (equipment everywhere, and hasn't been tidied), but my bedroom is ordered (because it did get tidied). I could turn those statements on their heads and have them be true though - just as you can with the vase. It could be the case that I like smashed vases, and in my concept of order the pieces are more ordered. Obviously not true in most peoples concept of order/chaos, but having lots of other people agree with your version doesn't make it true in any actual sense.:groucho:

So yes, order and chaos do exist, because we think they do.

It is interesting to note that your view of the entropic nature of the universe is opposite to the one I have btw: In my version, entropy = order, because it is moving from more complex to less complex (and the end state of any entropic system is by definition one of uniformity)...:crazy_diz


As for the vase - it's not more disordered then it was 2 seconds ago unless you want it to be - you could decide it's getting more ordered and leave it be. You could decide that you are going to sweep it up and bin it, and therefore the vase is actually more ordered because it won't be there to make you wonder if you can get away with binning it yet every time you see it (you got it from an aunt who will expect to see it when she visits)....:wink:

[TEK Tonic]

Humans define things in terms of what they are not as much as what they are, and our experience gets filtered and translated by our brain, which needs contrasting as well as similar experiences - essentially we work in opposites. Every human idea has it's opposite, because that is the root of our concious thought process (to be self aware, we needed a concept of "I" - which requires the definition of "not I").

The argument of wether the various concepts we create actually exist or not becomes one that is essentially irrelevant - everything we experience is translated by our brains, so the whole of existence for each of us could be a creation of our minds (which may not even exist themselves logically - the concept of self being a creation of the mind as well). At this point in the logical process, it's advisable to get out and push, and remember what Mr Pratchett wrote - Logic is all well and good, but there are times it doesn't beat actual thought.....:wink:

And actual thought says that the universe does exist, as do I because I am experiencing it. It also says that my sitting room is in chaos (equipment everywhere, and hasn't been tidied), but my bedroom is ordered (because it did get tidied). I could turn those statements on their heads and have them be true though - just as you can with the vase. It could be the case that I like smashed vases, and in my concept of order the pieces are more ordered. Obviously not true in most peoples concept of order/chaos, but having lots of other people agree with your version doesn't make it true in any actual sense.:groucho:

So yes, order and chaos do exist, because we think they do.



I've been holding onto this one for a while, but I think it is time I start a new thread...

Does reality REALLY exist?

[Space Master]

I've been holding onto this one for a while, but I think it is time I start a new thread...

Does reality REALLY exist?

I think the unseen problem with the does Chaos / Order really exist debate was ... nobody was sure if anything really exists to start with!

I said something about DMT once ... we've already got it inside our brains apparently, and lots of other animals have too, and lots of plants. Go figure what that implies ...!

[TEK Tonic]

I said something about DMT once ... we've already got it inside our brains apparently, and lots of other animals have too, and lots of plants. Go figure what that implies ...!

ALL drugs exist inside us already. Otherwise they wouldn't work on our delicate chemical systems.

[Space Master]

ALL drugs exist inside us already. Otherwise they wouldn't work on our delicate chemical systems.

No they do not lolol. I don't want to go into it cos i'll just seem snotty but just google "how drugs work" or "how psychoactive drugs work". :crazy:

[TEK Tonic]

One of the units in my degree was on "Psychopharmachology".

Snot on! :bounce_fl

[Space Master]

One of the units in my degree was on "Psychopharmachology".

Snot on! :bounce_fl

Well, you can PM me if you want a detailed reply :-)

[TEK Tonic]

Yer alright mate.

Besides, I guess what I meant to say is that all drugs are recognised by our brains or they wouldn't work.

MDMA works by binding to Seratonin receptors, NOT by binding to MDMA receptors. MDMA doesn't necessarily exist in our brains already, but our brains are wired up to recognise MDMA mollecules, or MDMA wouldn't work.

DMT on the other hand, does just exist in our brains already.

Quite a big difference I'm sure you will agree.

Sorry for the snotty, reactionary reply.

[Space Master]

yep, some drugs are more potent than natural neurotransmitters.

DMT is just weird from what i've read, i'd really love to be on it.

It's not been proven to be a neurotransmitter yet (has it?) but it's been found in the brain. I think tryptamine is a neurotransmitter, maybe DMT is just a product of that pathway. (i'm really rusty on this sorry, it's bad i know, but l havent kept up with the latest ideas).

I think it's like sugar - you want it, but what sort? You want a spoonful of sugar? You want a chocolate bar? You want an ice pop? You want an orange? There's lots of different ways of doing sugar, and some give a more intense rush than others and even slightly different types of FX.

This could all be one big trip! The more you think about it, the more weird it all seems.

[TEK Tonic]

(i'm really rusty on this sorry, it's bad i know, but l havent kept up with the latest ideas).


No need to apoligise, I left Uni about 10 years ago and haven't really thought about all this since then. Rusty is not the word!


This could all be one big trip! The more you think about it, the more weird it all seems.

Haven't you heard? Latest research suggests that it is :wink: