Religion and Raves - Compatible?

[Space Master]

Hi l've edited this post as l am bored and have run out of things to say, and besides l think this post was unclear and too full-on-sounding. Anyway, l reckon the Abrahamic faiths, Judaism, Christianity and Islam do not allow ppl to become ravers in the sense of going to modern day raves. For example, those religions don't let boys and girls get together in such atmospheres. [e.g. St. Paul saying that a wife should always walk behind her hubby [citation needed] and that women should wear veils (1 Corinthians 11:13-16). And Sharia Law in Islam requires a woman to be veiled. Zoroastrianism has similar laws, and l would imagine Buddhism and Hinduism and Mormonism etc etc do too, so wouldn't hard core partying and stuff like that contradict the principles of modesty in apparel etc.].


Religions such as these are ok, but left at the door.
Not because they are equally frowned upon, but because they are simply incompatible with being a hippy. They may have compatible spiritual aspects, and that's why it seems ok for Christians (for example) to go to raves these days, because most Christians only adhere to the spiritual side of the religion. However, the actual Law of the religions, which is fundemental to them, makes the Abrahamic religions incompatible with going to raves.

Sure can talk about God or atheism or fishing or whatever, when you're on E and raving, but religion = Law, not any simple, raw belief in God(s).

Not sure how Judaism stands on the topic, but l'm sure it would be against it too, probably more so if the Orthodoxy is to be considered.

I would hope the hippy / religionist / atheist / deist / anyone else etc etc. would be sincere & chivalrous, in other words, show consistency, not mixing things up and being unrealistic.

(that applies to religious ppl and ravers, as there seems to be tension on both sides)

Footnote:

It's not just [Abrahamic] religions. The same goes for any pair of contradictory systems. For example, being a strict follower of the philosophers Nietzsche and Schoppenhauer and being a hippy at the same time:


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Misogyny

Arthur Schopenhauer (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arthur_Schopenhauer) is famous for his essay "On Women" (Über die Weiber), in which he expressed his opposition to what he called "Teutonico-Christian stupidity" on female affairs. He claimed that "woman is by nature meant to obey." The essay does give two compliments however: that "women are decidedly more sober in their judgment than [men] are" and are more sympathetic to the suffering of others. However, the latter was discounted as weakness rather than humanitarian virtue.

Nietzsche (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nietzsche) is known for arguing that every higher form of civilization implied stricter controls on women [Beyond Good and Evil (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beyond_Good_and_Evil_%28book%29), 7:238]; he frequently insulted women, but is best known for phrases such as "Women are less than shallow," and "Are you going to women? Do not forget the whip!" Nietzche's reputation as a misogynist is disputed by some, pointing out that he also made unflattering statements about men.
To finish orf, l hope that a raver/hippy might take on a greater degree of ambivalence to worldly contentions l guess, but being critical of artistic matters is still "cool" as that is higher up than laws and fixed behaviour and the vicissitudes of life.

[noname]

What if rave is your religion...? :weee::weee::weee:

[Space Master]

What if rave is your religion...? :weee::weee::weee:

Then it won't contradict rave...

It's like ppl out to do vegetarian shopping wandering into a butchers, they shouldn't go for each other's throats, but they ought not be put at crossed purposes either...

My definition of a religion is something which has solid clear-cut revelations and laws besides a spiritual core, but hippies are just spiritual or hedonistic or whatever, minus any such laws, aren't they? I mean, there's still the rules of doing to others what you would have done to yourself but no superficial laws such as growing your sidelocks or shaving your head or even doing your tax returns by September. Of course when you get home you might want to look at your tax returns.

I think hippies are more like gnostic movements or just simple tribes that don't focus on spirituality. Mind you in the past, there have been tribes such as the Mongols, the Gipsies, the Goths etc. who had members of different religions all in the same tribe, so maybe religion is ok to be expressed. But then again, those tribes all had leaders who made sure everything was ok.

I really don't know the answer!

[Dr Bunsen]

Anyone remember the church of the 9 O'clock service?

The Rise and Fall of the Nine O'clock Service

A cult within the Church?

By Roland Howard

1996

ISBN 0-264-67419-7

Softback price approximately 7 pounds Sterling -Mobray (Great Britain)

From the introduction

Before the Nine O’clock Service (NOS) hit the headlines the story was a radical night-club style Church of England, raving in the isles. Then in the media frenzy the story was a Randy Vicar . . .on an unprecedented scale . . The real story is more disturbing . . . Underneath the carefully manicured exterior, the real story is of a man who seemed, according to many, to have a megalomaniac desire to control other people, of a complex, secretive organisation, where unknown to many, abuse existed; of a leadership convinced that their leader was God’s mouth piece who was going to save western civilisation. Yet it is also clear that the Revd C B was no mere pantomime villain. The ‘vision’ that he held out to his congregation was intelligent and relevant, and although most members I interviewed believe that he behaved cynically and cruelly, others point to a struggle within him between his passion for justice and his desire for power. Some are convinced that his mission was genuine, while others suggest that he lost his way. Many are convinced that he was a skilful and ruthless power seeker.

The real story is of a congregation’s sacrifice of hundreds of thousands of pounds, of careers, and of their minds, bodies, souls and dress sense. The real story is of lawyers, doctors, professors, psychiatrists, theologians, football fans and clubbers convinced that their leader was a prophet who could change the world.

The real story is of betrayal and abuse, of a leader living in luxury and travelling the world in designer clothes whilst his congregation largely lived in the ‘simple lifestyle’. It is of a minister, according to some ,sexually involved with some 40 female members of his congregation. More over, it is of a priest manipulating, controlling and dominating the minds of several hundred members who thought he was ministering to them. The power was power to damn, power to humiliate, power to enter peoples minds and power to control them. The real story is of a cult in the Church of England (Anglican or Episcopalian - ED) . . . . . . . This is the story of C B and of his disciples, whose commitment and idealism were awesome and whose betrayal was devastating. This is the story of pioneering and relevant theology, corrupted into systematic abuse. But the Nine o’clock Service is not only a story concerning abuse; it is also a story of integrity and idealism, of wrestling with the complexities and addictions of contemporary life as Christians . . For most it was the importance and relevance of the church’s vision that held their loyalty, and that made it harder to recognise the abuse. The corruption of the best they say is the worst".


Introduction to this article.

Roland Howard interviewed an unknown number of NOSERS and NOSers following the fall of the church in August 1995. The following extracts are from an article he wrote to publicise his book (advertised above).

When reading the accounts in his book, and more particularly in the article that follows, it is important to remember the self selecting nature of his subjects, and the kind of agendas that different groups of NOSERS may have had. Sensibly Roland merely reports the differing accounts, however this can lead to an over emphasis on the ‘CB evil hypnotic genius hypothesis’.

When trying to comprehend how people could end up in this trap I would suggest that the following points be remembered

1. Most people joining the church were psychological refugees from the emotional abuse that often characterises charismatic churches, or from the intellectual desert of fundametalist evangelicalism. Both these faiths have a powerful experience at their hearts, which many would be members were desperate to make sense of.

2. After 10 years only the most easily manipulated were at the heart of NOS. Anyone who could have stood against the church's culture were marginalised until they left (usually deeply embittered), or lurked around the fringes. Roland's book suffers greatly from its journalistic style, and its disgused mixing of primary and secondary sources (ie: unreferenced quotes). In other words the spin of August 95 is often mixed with the spin of ex leaders. Never the less it is a thought provoking read, if read in a wider context of NOS knowledge, and must surely prove of value to people in similar circumstances.


THE SUNDAY TIMES Magazine 25 August 1996

Page 28

BLURB: "The Raving Reverend"

Young worshippers flocked to Chris Brain’s ecstatic Nine o'clock Services. His charisma mesmerised his followers1. Even the Church of England seemed spellbound: when this woman (not shown-ED) reported Brain to his Bishop, her evidence was ignored. Then all hell broke loose. Rowland Howard reports.

The young Sheffield vicar was the golden boy of the Anglican Church. Not only was B’s rave style Nine O’Clock Service (NOS) bringing hundreds of new worshippers into the fold, but his dynamic leadership was to be studied and emulated. The Archbishop of C, Dr G C, praised the ministry. Hundreds of clergy visited his parish (NOS WAS NOT A PARISH and CB was not a parish priest!--ED) each year to learn from his success.

NOS used rave [dance -ED] music, theatrical ritual, and multimedia effects to create a form of Christianity that grew out of their own milieu: urban club culture. B's magnetism drew hundreds of young people to the church2, including many professionals who donated thousands of pounds, signed away their houses and committed their lives to him. In less that 2 years NOS was 400 strong, eventually growing to 600 (not COE figures -ED). At a time when other congregations were dwindling, this was a modern miracle. A lay leader (frounted a house group- ED) in 1986, when he set up NOS at St Thomas’s, in Crookes, Sheffield , Brain was given a special ‘fast track’ ordination to allow him to minister to his congregation (i.e His period as a decon was very short- ED).

Respect for him was so great that he was invited to write a chapter in the prestigious book "Treasures of the Field", of which the Archbishop of Canterbury was co-editor [ Treasures in the Field edited by Gillet and Scott-Joynt, 1993, has 46 contributors, CB's semi literate effort runs to 12 pages out of 336 pages -ED]. Hundreds [surely some mistake- ED] of copy cat services sprang up; Carey went out of his way to encourage them. One internationally known theologian described NOS as a "proto type mass culture church" whose impact "is to bring into question what is done in the wider church"

But Brain was soon to fall from grace. A year ago he was suspended following revelations that he had been involved with a "score" of women in his congregation, and allegations that his church was abusive and cult like. Hundreds of traumatised Nine O'clock Service members told their own stories of abuse as they realised how far they had been sucked into a dangerous, insular world. Tales emerged of . . . . .ludicrous spending sprees and of a secretive team of "handmaidens" who served Brain.

Many [some and not publicly-ED] in Brain's congregation considered him a prophet sent to save the western world by reinventing Christianity for the 21st century. Yet his teaching were distinctly unorthodox. He encouraged his "inner circle" to be unfaithful to their spouses and to raise "spiritual energy" by masturbating, and offered women healing through an exploration of sexual intimacy with him. Brain . . . was a genius at manipulating and exploiting his congregation while at the same time duping theologians, academics and the Anglican authorities.

One year on, NOS is no more. Some of its members are receiving counselling. Some still swear that they now see the whole of Christianity as a cult, while others point to the things they believe NOS got right and are keen to rebuild on them. . . . .CB who is now 39, was suspended from his ministry last November and is still in hiding. He has not been charged in any criminal or ecclesiastical court. A handful of members claim he has been made a scape goat.

In the course of researching a book on the subject, I heard disturbing tales that reveal the depth and complexity of abuse that people experienced. What makes this sadder was that members had such a deep commitment to their vision of Christianity. If this was a cult, the fact was harder to recognise because it apparently had so much to offer. The idealism and intelligence of those close to B were subtly skewed and compromised as they were sucked into a damaging parallel universe from which their was no easy way back

S.C, . . . joined NOS in her early 20's. She was . . idealistic and was attracted by NOS's programme (never realised) for helping the poor. C rose to become one of B's deputies. She says he gained control of people by using his acute powers of perception to nurture neuroses. His ability to open people up and control them was astonishing. In April 1989 C watched the news images of the Hillsborough disaster, in which scores of [Soccer] fans were crushed to death. She went down to help the over stretched emergency services ,and organised for other NOS volunteers to help relatives seeking their loved ones . She returned home at 6 am, numbed after seeing corpses and distraught families, and told her partner that she was going to bed. After 2 hours sleep she was woken by B, who started stroking her hair and telling her how heroic she had been, how proud he was of her. A couple of weeks later he told a different story. He told her and other NOS leaders that they were evil, that God's judgement was hovering over them, and that their death was a real possibility. He singled out C; he never wanted to see her acting in such a selfish egocentric way as she had at Hillsborough, he said.

J.I had been converted to the faith by Brain as a teenager. He was manager of the organisation. . . He used to dread the weekly 20 minute meetings, called 'see me' sessions, at which he had to B's agreement for the tinniest decisions. He would get up at 3 am to rehearse his lines and observe his own body language. If he was too assertive, he risked being attacked as an egomaniac masquerading behind false modesty.

In the office, Brain sat with 3 black clad secretaries. One with a stop watch said "Go" and allowed the agreed number of seconds for his question. Another took minutes, and the third held up "yes", "No" or "See me" answer boards. B sat mute and inscrutable. When B felt 'I' was being obsequious, he picked up a plastic backside from beneath his desk and held it in I's face.

C. . . a leading light behind NOS's musical extravaganza, was, like most of the others, in her early 20's when she joined . . . She was disturbed by B's sexual manipulation. In the early days B made advances and excused him self by saying he was receiving counselling in relation to his sexuality. Subsequent visits to the 'vicarage' renewed her concern. ‘B’ had a hand picked group of young women called the homebase team to help him and his wife . . .in their domestic duties. When C arrived one day, the team were dressed provcatively, some in underclothes, as they went about their chores. One morning she arrived to find B discussing his sexuality with a team member. The young woman looked completely humiliated. On another occasion C had found a member of Homebase deeply distressed and in tears after B had verbally attacked her. But to speak out to outsiders about Homebase was considered an intrusion into B's privacy, so C let the matter drop.

M, now 31, . . . was the first member of NOS to do something about her misgivings. . .She was bowled over by what she saw inside [the worship services] but thought that here was a church taking Christ's injunctions about housing . . . the homeless and feeding the poor seriously. . . .she became convinced that [NOS] . was dangerous. . . She hated the way he dominated the leaders, who idolised him and acquiesced to his abuse of power. When she complained of the complete absence of democracy in NOS, she was shunned and told to sort out her own psychological problems. She left in late 1992 and wrote to David Lunn, Bishop of Sheffield. But the NOS machine got there first, and warned them that M was unstable, urging him to discount her letter. Lunn met her but appeared to disregard what she had to say.
The NOS community was trying to create a new model for healthy spirituality, rejecting dogma, abusive power structures and personality cults that lead to dependence. Unknown to many members, NOS it's self was the very opposite. . . . It had screening procedures to ensure that those who joined were 100% committed. About 70% of those seeking to join were turned down or dropped out [not COE figures, and this only relates to dropping out of the induction process, not out of NOS once inducted -ED].

New members were put into training groups for Bible study and prayer. But leaders were instructed to focus on personal problems. "in playing off married couples against each other time, "the quieter one I had to affirm and encourage. The idea was to wind up the dominant partner. We were told loving aggressively was good and Christianity wasn't about being nice but about the "passionate fruits", the hard edged aspects of the holy sprit"

. . . . required makeover affecting lifestyle, attitude, and most noticeably, clothes. Members had to wear black.P that , to be really part of the culture of NOS she had to be "of the culture"

F waited nearly a year. " . . . . .he sent me out shopping with the NOS stylist . . . .For two days I bought a lot of clothes. I was told by C that if I wore them I could never wear the old clothes again. She lost weight, and dyed her hair black, stopped reading novels and knitting and stared listening to dance music and clubbing. Christian classics were recommended, as well as trendy magazines like 'The face' and 'i_D'. F felt false reinventing her self in a weekend.

Nobody's integrity was undermined as greatly as those of the key leaders . . [b] had the ability to create slavish dependence even with the most intelligent people. When he started a relationship , he always had the advantage of being an enigmatic figure whom had created a phenomenal church and was spoken of in hushed whispers by the leaders. He oozed charisma, and his jaw dropping service conferred an aura of mystery and power. His first approach was usually to flatter and create a sense of worth in the person. This could last weeks or months as he drew them in and encouraged them to discuss their weaknesses or sexual fantasies. He would hint at a greater involvement . . . .or a deeper relationship with him. He might tell a woman that he was lonely, that he'd been starved of affection and that she was helping him grow emotionally as she kissed and cuddled him.

The next stage was to reject the person completely for no apparent reason, or to suggest that they had an undefined problem that was holding them back from a deeper friendship with him. He would start to perceive minor weaknesses, and gradually work on them until the person was convinced the had significant problems. He convinced several men that they were gay or misogynous, many were accused of being megalomaniacs or competitive. Sometimes he would feign "r play disclosure games to tease out hidden fears or skeletons in cupboards. Some are still convinced that B had psychic ability. Those who were close to him have, with few exceptions, lost their faith or gone into moths of intensive counselling or both.

No group was more damaged than B's . . . . unsurprisingly the bubble burst. One woman complained to the Bishop in April 1995 that B had tried to kiss her and that NOS was a cult, B . .denied it . . During the congregations break in July 1995 one of the service leaders resigned .. [Archdeacon] Lowe met her and was told about the Homebase team and of a clear example of sexual impropriety involving B. Lowe called all the NOS leaders together and told them of the allegations.

Lowe started interviewing people . . .B seemed more shocked by the betrayal than by the allegations . . . Lowe formally suspended him. . . . A sort of corporate deprogramming took place in which hundreds of NOS members tried to face up to the scale of the abuse . . .in the following months it became clear that B' misdemeanours were not confined to sex and power. His lifestyle was more suited to a company director . . . . . . . Most members say they have forsaken Christianity for good . . . Archbishop Carey has said " one man should not be allowed to detract from the inspiration NOS has been to many, or deflect us form continuing to explores new expressions of worship

1-Actually this isn't all ways quite true, I was in or around NOS for 3 years and wasn't evensure which one CB was when the news broke. The idea that I joined NOS to follow any person at all is very annoying. I don't recognise this picture.

2-This is misleading, he had not been receiving a stipend since officially resigning as NOS leader, and consequently had no ministry with NOS. He had only received a stipend intermittently at best, and not after his 1994 resignation. He was involved in some way with the SF group, but that was not financially supported by the COE, his original training had been as a Non stipendiary, that is volunteer -UNPAID-worker. When Roland refers to his CB's ability to perform the duties of a priest within the Anglican communion it should be understood that CB remains a ‘priest’, in the technical sense in that no court case has been brought against him, but is effectively black balled. It is not certain that a legal case could have been won anyway, and the months of press coverage of the court case would have been very unpleasent . . . .

3-Because black was very fashionable at the time, and NOS had roots in the goth fashion. There was no consistent uniform, and it did look good.

4-Part of the church's recruitment problem is one of 'local culture, therefore the NOSers had to enculture themselves in what was meant to be the evangelism target: 'club culture'
(http://members.tripod.com/%7Enineoclockservice/confs.htm)

[Playground Politics]

lets remember that religion is a totally man made thing rather than spirituality, and belief, religion has changexd alot from what we think is a long time ago, middle east seems to be in a time warp with religion and it has changed much, this is how we have developed into letting gay maridges be alright, but theres great difference how ppl take in the "word of god", whitch is the only proof religion has, this is as spirituality is more of a faith. now the question u are asking weather religion can work with raves is irrevelant. a rave is a way of life, religion is a belief, i cant have a belief in raves as they have soul proof that they happen. weather or not raves have time for religion is another topic, raves are free, they imbellish everyone who ever they are (even coppers), its weather religion has time for raves whitch is the main concern,

i personally do believe in greater things than my self, i think there is a god, and im willing to go to raves, that does not mean that i dont sin, cos to be honest the hardest part of a faith is understanding that what ever you do in this world you sin, and excepting that someone much higher can forgive u is a big thought. altho religion in this day is very corrupted, eg iraq, the english church, amaerican christians, israel, atc etc etc. this is where religion has gone wrong and how i hate to associate myself to it

hope that helped, probably didnt

[starlaugh]

Money IS NOT the route of all evil,

Religion IS the route of all evil..................................

[MisterDuck]

Greed is the root of all evil, namely greed for power, which a lot of religion has spawned from, and other fucked up things in this world.

[globalloon]

Anyone remember the church of the 9 O'clock service?

http://members.tripod.com/~nineoclockservice/confs.htm

that's my kind of religion

[Hazza88]

Money IS NOT the route of all evil,

Religion IS the route of all evil..................................

Agree, most wars are caused by fuckin religion

[tarifa]

its not god or money that's the root of all evil, its people

people's fear and greed

[Motamba]

Religion sucks big stylee' but standing infront of a rig in a barn in the middle of no-where on a Sunday morning is most edifying'
M'

[Motamba]

lets remember that religion is a totally man made thing rather than spirituality, and belief, religion has changexd alot from what we think is a long time ago, middle east seems to be in a time warp with religion and it has changed much, this is how we have developed into letting gay maridges be alright, but theres great difference how ppl take in the "word of god", whitch is the only proof religion has, this is as spirituality is more of a faith. now the question u are asking weather religion can work with raves is irrevelant. a rave is a way of life, religion is a belief, i cant have a belief in raves as they have soul proof that they happen. weather or not raves have time for religion is another topic, raves are free, they imbellish everyone who ever they are (even coppers), its weather religion has time for raves whitch is the main concern,

i personally do believe in greater things than my self, i think there is a god, and im willing to go to raves, that does not mean that i dont sin, cos to be honest the hardest part of a faith is understanding that what ever you do in this world you sin, and excepting that someone much higher can forgive u is a big thought. altho religion in this day is very corrupted, eg iraq, the english church, amaerican christians, israel, atc etc etc. this is where religion has gone wrong and how i hate to associate myself to it

hope that helped, probably didnt
GOD =

G = Gravity

O = Zero gravity'

D = 3 dimension 4 5 etc

Religion is "Slavery" designed by the so called hierarchy powers to keep control'
The "Word of God" was oh so obviously written by men on weird and wonderful psychedelics for sure'
Forgiveness comes from self, find your own truth'

[JonnyQuest]

GOD =

In my opinion Religion is "Slavery" designed by the so called hierarchy powers to keep control'
I feel that The "Word of God" was oh so obviously written by men on weird and wonderful psychedelics for sure'
if you ask me Forgiveness comes from self, find your own truth'

i agree

[tarifa]

I think faith and god/s are a personal thing and think its difficult to justify criticising someone else's faith just because you don't have it

but then again i'm a bleeding-heart liberal (not an actual possible standpoint for the obvious and inescapable reasons blah blah blah :wink: )

[pillthrill]

When it comes to religion for me, I think you do it all the way, or not at all. There is no middle.

You get your ass to church 2 or 3 times a week. You pray several times a day. You live the way the Bible says, as you understand it I guess, to a T. And you read it daily.

Or

You don't.

I've done both. Jehovah's Witnesses have 4 meets a week, with a ministry school, and then I had 40 hours of field service (knocking on doors) that I did...forget it...there is too much guilt in religion for me anyway. I hate myself enough as it is.

[DaftFader]

lets remember that religion is a totally man made thing rather than spirituality, and belief, religion has changexd alot from what we think is a long time ago, middle east seems to be in a time warp with religion and it has changed much, this is how we have developed into letting gay maridges be alright, but theres great difference how ppl take in the "word of god", whitch is the only proof religion has, this is as spirituality is more of a faith. now the question u are asking weather religion can work with raves is irrevelant. a rave is a way of life, religion is a belief, i cant have a belief in raves as they have soul proof that they happen. weather or not raves have time for religion is another topic, raves are free, they imbellish everyone who ever they are (even coppers), its weather religion has time for raves whitch is the main concern,

i personally do believe in greater things than my self, i think there is a god, and im willing to go to raves, that does not mean that i dont sin, cos to be honest the hardest part of a faith is understanding that what ever you do in this world you sin, and excepting that someone much higher can forgive u is a big thought. altho religion in this day is very corrupted, eg iraq, the english church, amaerican christians, israel, atc etc etc. this is where religion has gone wrong and how i hate to associate myself to it

hope that helped, probably didnt

imo religon is man mad and as pp has said changes alot over time .. i meen back in the day you decided that you where a prophet and people were like omg he's sent from god ..then some one rights a book about you that people base there lives on ... now days you decide you are a prophet ..tell some one... a few more ppl hear what you belive and you probably will be seen as a blaspheamer .... and or locked up in mental hospital ... who's to say that crazy guy that walks down your road talking to him self and shouting out "the end is comming" isn't the next jesus/mohamed ect... well todays sociaty ... i meen if jesus hadn't apeared when he did and decided to apear now .. then no one would listen to him ...he would be that crazy man walking down the road ... not the son of god that he was made out to be.....as a raver i belive in having fun and generaly trying to be a good person thats all i need.i couldn't belive something so far fetched as the bibal/korahn or the torrah ect. alltho might read it as a fiction novel if i had the time ..... if some one came up to me in a rave or in my out side life for that matter to talk about religion that would be fine .. as im talking to you lot about it now and you are to me also ... the only thing i don't like is when it gets rammed down your through like the person talking to you is trying to brain wash you .... i meen im respecting there belifs so they should fucking respect mine you know ... i guess mixing raves with religon is ok but tbh any one who is truely religous and follows w/e holy txt properly wouldn't go to a rave because im sure that some activity they would be takeing part in or seeing would be against there religion ...like being at a rave on sunday morning instead of being in church/resting or w/e

[globalloon]

religious people are a joke. personal belief is fine, but organised religion is arrogant and frankly idiotic

[pillthrill]

Here here! :you_crazy

[Dr Bunsen]

UY-ZrwFwLQg

[Dr Bunsen]

MeSSwKffj9o

[starlaugh]

religious people are a joke. personal belief is fine, but organised religion is arrogant and frankly idiotic

I come from a religious family and i don't care what they believe in, its their choice.

But some of them are the happy clappy type Christians who preach it to you. The church they go to has signs outside saying Buffy the vampire slayer i evil and you shouldn't watch it, there were ones about planet of the apes to.

Basically this church is denying that we evolved into what we are today, so they are ignoring science and facts and preaching utter bull shit that has not scientific evidence or facts.

My auntie only found out a couple of months ago that me and my dad don't believe in god and she was horrified! :laugh_at:

[bones]

lets remember that religion is a totally man made thing rather than spirituality, and belief, religion has changexd alot from what we think is a long time ago, middle east seems to be in a time warp with religion and it has changed much, this is how we have developed into letting gay maridges be alright, but theres great difference how ppl take in the "word of god", whitch is the only proof religion has, this is as spirituality is more of a faith. now the question u are asking weather religion can work with raves is irrevelant. a rave is a way of life, religion is a belief, i cant have a belief in raves as they have soul proof that they happen. weather or not raves have time for religion is another topic, raves are free, they imbellish everyone who ever they are (even coppers), its weather religion has time for raves whitch is the main concern,

i personally do believe in greater things than my self, i think there is a god, and im willing to go to raves, that does not mean that i dont sin, cos to be honest the hardest part of a faith is understanding that what ever you do in this world you sin, and excepting that someone much higher can forgive u is a big thought. altho religion in this day is very corrupted, eg iraq, the english church, amaerican christians, israel, atc etc etc. this is where religion has gone wrong and how i hate to associate myself to it

hope that helped, probably didnt

I fail to understand your logic, on one hand you say that all religion is manmade, and you are correct, then you say that you believe in god...
It is man that made god, so you contradict yourself!...That is the main problem with religion, contradiction!....So what you mean is this: I BELIEVE IN THE MANMADE GOD AND MANMADE RELIGION....personally, anyone that believes in any god or religion, is basically stupid and uneducated!

Where the fuck is this god? Why the fuck would this god need religion, surely if there is a god, we would not need religion!...And why the fuck would this so called god need to make a fucked up world full of suffering?

The simple answer is that anyone that believes in a god of any description, is simply unable to think for themselves, have a small number of brain cells and don't know what the fuck they are talking about......:you_crazy

[Playground Politics]

I fail to understand your logic, on one hand you say that all religion is manmade, and you are correct, then you say that you believe in god...
It is man that made god, so you contradict yourself!...That is the main problem with religion, contradiction!....So what you mean is this: I BELIEVE IN THE MANMADE GOD AND MANMADE RELIGION....personally, anyone that believes in any god or religion, is basically stupid and uneducated!

Where the fuck is this god? Why the fuck would this god need religion, surely if there is a god, we would not need religion!...And why the fuck would this so called god need to make a fucked up world full of suffering?

The simple answer is that anyone that believes in a god of any description, is simply unable to think for themselves, have a small number of brain cells and don't know what the fuck they are talking about......:you_crazy

hahaha, sorry if i upset u in what i believe, maybe i am wrong(:weee:).. there is a difference. while writing that i did get my self in a bit of a pickle to say the least. what i meant is that i believe in god, but i dont agree with religion, and religion is the man made aspect of what ppl have created to give an example such as, priests, church hierachy, how the church has sooo much wealth, baptism, all the laws that the catholic church made etc etc. i just dont like how man has changed what is essentially a belief with no real evidence

its true i do have a small number of brain cells tho last count was about 100 million

[talebosh]

there is no way any of the religions will condone raving. At a rave you may get a sence of unity with fellow ravers that could be miss interpreted as religios experience where'as it is a human experience.

In some ways I want to believe in god just so when i get to meet my maker I can tell him/her what a fucking low life c**t he/she is.

god is most definately NOT a dj, if he is then i'm off to the opera

[Playground Politics]

god is most definately NOT a dj, if he is then i'm off to the opera

hahaha:laugh_at:

[Playground Politics]

And why the fuck would this so called god need to make a fucked up world full of suffering?

god didnt do this, we did!

[XLeanne06X]

yes and no
because religion is someones personal beliefs
i personally think religion is a load of bollocks, actually i dont...
RAVE IS MY RELIGION raaa

[bones]

hahaha, sorry if i upset u in what i believe, maybe i am wrong(:weee:).. there is a difference. while writing that i did get my self in a bit of a pickle to say the least. what i meant is that i believe in god, but i dont agree with religion, and religion is the man made aspect of what ppl have created to give an example such as, priests, church hierachy, how the church has sooo much wealth, baptism, all the laws that the catholic church made etc etc. i just dont like how man has changed what is essentially a belief with no real evidence

its true i do have a small number of brain cells tho last count was about 100 million

I have 1 million and 1 brain cells....You didn't upset me, it's just in this day and age, when we know the universe came from the big bang, we know (maybe not you though) exactly how we came into existance, we know we evolved from the techno monkey, we know that the bible is manmade, even though we know all this, some people such as yourself, still believe in this manmade god, WHY?....The belief in any god, is nothing more than superstition!...no different from people that believe in fairies or the loch ness monster!...Why do you believe in god? What are you scared of? Do you think you are really going to hell? COME ON, LETS GROW UP FOR FUCK SAKE!!!!!

[talebosh]

unfortunately the 'big bang' theory is just that. A theory that is acceptable to the church as it gives us a point of creation. The big problem with it is that for the first 3 seconds of the universe existance & for the big bang to work there could not be the laws of physics. So now the theory is that for the 1st 3 secs the laws of physics hadn't fallen into place. So the entire big bang theory is held together with another theory that is unproveable and quite frankly absurd.

[DaftFader]

unfortunately the 'big bang' theory is just that. A theory that is acceptable to the church as it gives us a point of creation. The big problem with it is that for the first 3 seconds of the universe existance & for the big bang to work there could not be the laws of physics. So now the theory is that for the 1st 3 secs the laws of physics hadn't fallen into place. So the entire big bang theory is held together with another theory that is unproveable and quite frankly absurd.

science has it's limits ..ie. we only know what we can work out ... your getting into the relms of anti matter ect ... witch is hard for us to study/understand atm as we dont come across it that often ... lol ... trying to work out somthing that happened billions of years ago is very hard ... at least science goes on fact mostly .. wear as religon goes by some book some dude wrote about 2000 years ago ..give or take a few depending on religion ect. or even older .... but never the less it's a book/scroll/ect .... for all we know ..it could of been a fiction noval of the 0bc era...:laugh_at: ..(christianity) .... well .. ok jebas did exist ...the church and every one else knows this ... how? ...because the church and every one else relied on scientists to prove that he did through various methods .... any way with out me making this post too long ... can i ask why you belive that a theory that can't be proved is absurd when you belive in the church's theory of the creation of the earth witch happens to also not proved...?

with out meaning to cause offence to any one i think the church and most religons are a bunch of self centered *$@t's .... why be so narrow minded as to belive that the human race is the center of the universe .... when for all any one on this planet knows there could be so much more to the universe....

[General Lighting]

I think theris a big difference between spirituality and organised religion

if people as individuals wish to believe in whatever higher beings they want to I have no problem with that.

where there is a problem is when organised hierarchical religions start imposing "moral values" on people over and above those imposed by elected parliaments.

Whilst I get a chance to elect my MP or councillor I do not get a chance to elect the local vicar/priest/imam etc.

Therefore unless I support their religion I do not feel they have the right to try and shape my moral values (and whilst I might bend the rules a bit I do not consider myself to be an evil person)

ironically I find the worst ones to be the happy clappy church of england types.

A conservative Catholic may say what I do is a sin but many of them don't actually hate me for it (I usually end up with them praying for me).

Despite (or maybe because of?) the current climate I've found a lot of young Muslims I have met to be tolerant of my lifestyle -one of the few work colleagues at my old job I considered to be a personal friend was a devout Muslim. Of course he wouldn't take part in some of the things I did but respected my choices.

But I find with the "alpha project" types they come across as all fluffy and poltiically correct but they are very close to middle england and the Conservative party, and we all know what they stand for. Church and state are rarely separate even in supposedly "secular" nations, people with power work together to keep it.

[Playground Politics]

I have 1 million and 1 brain cells....You didn't upset me, it's just in this day and age, when we know the universe came from the big bang, we know (maybe not you though) exactly how we came into existance, we know we evolved from the techno monkey, we know that the bible is manmade, even though we know all this, some people such as yourself, still believe in this manmade god, WHY?....The belief in any god, is nothing more than superstition!...no different from people that believe in fairies or the loch ness monster!...Why do you believe in god? What are you scared of? Do you think you are really going to hell? COME ON, LETS GROW UP FOR FUCK SAKE!!!!!

big bang is a theory, i cant help my belief, and its exactly that a belief, i will never have any fact that god is out there, and the quicker u realise that the quicker i go to heaven :wink:

[JonnyQuest]

beleiev in a greater force all you like, rock on with that, but dont go by a major religion it just seems like a waste cause you can sort of trace em back to where and when sombody made them up

[DaftFader]

I find the worst ones to be the happy clappy church of england types.

I've found a lot of young Muslims I have met to be tolerant of my lifestyle
i know exactly what you meen .. personafied in a situation i was in a few years back ...

i was living in some christian "help the needy" house hould when i was going to collage ... this collage was the "best technical collage" in england aparently .. so it had atracted the uaa .."united arab emrits" .. to train there solders in the mech and elec arts there ... i lived along side several arab guys .. all muslim ... but the guy who was there the longest with me ... i got to know well and he was very tollerant with me being a raver .. i spent many a night telling about my escapaids .. lol .... but the host family i was living with seem to be intolerant of any sugestion of the idea ....

[talebosh]

... can i ask why you belive that a theory that can't be proved is absurd when you belive in the church's theory of the creation of the earth witch happens to also not proved...?

....[/QUOTE]


It seem smy post came over wrong. I most certainly do not hold any belief that the place was created by some god like creature and to me it is as absurd as the big bang theory.
While the anarchist in me believes that everyone should have respect in whatever they do with their lives I find that more difficult when it comes to religious ideology which I find abhorrant in any shape or form. Each day that passes my discust for/at/all 'religion' increases exponentially. Thats not to say that there are some great people involved in a church or whatever that devote alot of their time hel;ping people esspesially at a local level. Its then i think - poor deluded fools.

oh and when it gets to scientology i get really mad but then again they are no more deluded then some christian/muslim/jew/& the rest
I was going to start a religion believing in the 'google' . It knows everything & is its own entity in its own right out of human hands now. We will be called the googlers & must give our lives to the google worshiping everyday by searching the wonders and depths of google.

[DaftFader]

I was going to start a religion believing in the 'google' . It knows everything & is its own entity in its own right out of human hands now. We will be called the googlers & must give our lives to the google worshiping everyday by searching the wonders and depths of google.

haha fair play ... me and a fiew m8s have had ideas of starting our own religons for the fun of it .. none of us have actualy don't it yet tho ..lol :crazy_diz

[pinkfairy]

i tried church for size when i was a teenager, i loved the feeling of acceptance and involvement that my church offered and found the feelings experienced in praise a real high... then i discovered raving...
i discovered a group of people even more excepting of my experiences and realised the rush i experienced in praise could actually be beaten by the rush when there is a decent tune playing and im dancing my arse off.

so does religion and raving clash? in my opinion yes, admitting to raving in the presence of a religious person(or religion at a rave!) is bound to cause you to need to justify yourself. the problem is not that the experience isnt similar at times,as illustrated, its that within both parties there is set of norms and values imposed which excludes acceptance of the other.

[DaftFader]

Hey PV,
I have been a member of these forums for a while now, haven't really posted anything very meaningful so far :) But this topic really interests me. I'm going to start by replying to Daftfaders post as he is my best m8 and I know him well...

science has it's limits ..ie. we only know what we can work out ... your getting into the relms of anti matter ect ... witch is hard for us to study/understand atm as we dont come across it that often ... lol

Yes science does have its limits! However I believe we can work anything out if we put our minds to it! I don't think we should take what scientists or the various religions as a fact, its not something that is cast in stone lol What I believe is that we all have the choice in life to believe what we choose to believe and that is choice NOT for anyone else to make, which is what seems to have happened from the beginning of time to the present; what I mean is that throughout history we have been told what to think what to do, what is right and what is wrong...by who you ask? The answer to that is by whoever seems to have more power than you...eg. the king...the pope, the rabbi...the doctor, the medicine man...the president or minister...your mother or father...or simply the wrong person...someone who does not have your best interests at heart! Life as I see it is a power struggle people project their own beliefs, thoughts and ideas on others, and when they do this, it makes them feel powerful...I'm sure every single one of you reading this can recall doing this, probably you do it everyday! when we do instill our beliefs in other people we take away their GoD given right to make their own choice there own decision...We need to stop telling people what to think how to act, their minds belong to them and no one has the right to invade your mind...this is my opinion of why this is the wrong way to go about it! So what is the right way to go about it in my opinion? The right way is your way, your own thoughts...your own mind stop letting others dictate to you what you should think, think for yourself...If you agree what I'm saying thats fine thats your own opinion thats your choice and I'm not going to force this on you...I can only show you what I believe and know to be true, this is my belief!

can i ask why you belive that a theory that can't be proved is absurd when you belive in the church's theory of the creation of the earth witch happens to also not proved...?

I don't believe the churches theory of creation as it's not my choice! In life I have to believe in me, life is full of lessons to help us grow, we just have to look at life from the right point of view...our own point of view

So...Whatever I believe its my choice to believe what I do because I know it to be true, I have proved it to myself by making my own choices to learn everything I can from myself and others and from the world around me, everyone is seeking happiness they are seeking the feeling of love... think about what I'm saying....no...i mean really think about what im suggesting......well I will leave it to you its your decision your choice to chose to think about it or not! I'm not about to tell you what to think, I can only show you the way I see it.........................................

[DaftFader]

Hey PV,
I have been a member of these forums for a while now, haven't really posted anything very meaningful so far :) But this topic really interests me. I'm going to start by replying to Daftfaders post as he is my best m8 and I know him well...



Yes science does have its limits! However I believe we can work anything out if we put our minds to it! I don't think we should take what scientists or the various religions as a fact, its not something that is cast in stone lol What I believe is that we all have the choice in life to believe what we choose to believe and that is choice NOT for anyone else to make, which is what seems to have happened from the beginning of time to the present; what I mean is that throughout history we have been told what to think what to do, what is right and what is wrong...by who you ask? The answer to that is by whoever seems to have more power than you...eg. the king...the pope, the rabbi...the doctor, the medicine man...the president or minister...your mother or father...or simply the wrong person...someone who does not have your best interests at heart! Life as I see it is a power struggle people project their own beliefs, thoughts and ideas on others, and when they do this, it makes them feel powerful...I'm sure every single one of you reading this can recall doing this, probably you do it everyday! when we do instill our beliefs in other people we take away their GoD given right to make their own choice there own decision...We need to stop telling people what to think how to act, their minds belong to them and no one has the right to invade your mind...this is my opinion of why this is the wrong way to go about it! So what is the right way to go about it in my opinion? The right way is your way, your own thoughts...your own mind stop letting others dictate to you what you should think, think for yourself...If you agree what I'm saying thats fine thats your own opinion thats your choice and I'm not going to force this on you...I can only show you what I believe and know to be true, this is my belief!



I don't believe the churches theory of creation as it's not my choice! In life I have to believe in me, life is full of lessons to help us grow, we just have to look at life from the right point of view...our own point of view

So...Whatever I believe its my choice to believe what I do because I know it to be true, I have proved it to myself by making my own choices to learn everything I can from myself and others and from the world around me, everyone is seeking happiness they are seeking the feeling of love... think about what I'm saying....no...i mean really think about what im suggesting......well I will leave it to you its your decision your choice to chose to think about it or not! I'm not about to tell you what to think, I can only show you the way I see it.........................................

this was posted by burning 01 on my acount by mistake :laugh_at:

[JulesDogg]

lets remember that religion is a totally man made thing rather than spirituality

hmmm yes religion is a man made thing but so is spirituality....

[JonnyQuest]

hmmm yes religion is a man made thing but so is spirituality....

do monkeys believe in heaven?

[DaftFader]

do monkeys believe in heaven?
your a monkey you tell me :laugh_at:

[JonnyQuest]

your a monkey you tell me :laugh_at:

OB!

[JulesDogg]

when we know the universe came from the big bang

So all that there is came from a singularity of zero size and infinite mass that suddenly burst into life and expanded into nothingness to create everything. Hmmm

Sorry bones, just doesn't wash with me. The math only stands up to a point shortly after the big bang. When enquiries are made about the nature of things when at the very moment the BB occured all the math breaks down. Additionally, there is no comments or even investigation into conditions prior to the BB. It is very much a theory. Yes it seems a useful theory, but theories are not facts. You cannot really say the universe came from the BB, all you can say is that the BB was a possible part of the process.


Science has nothing much to say about the origin of consciousness and those that do comment/investigate all seem to disagree.


I'm going to stick my neck out here with my humble opinion (*Dons flame-proof asbestos gown*)

Any given reality is created by the collective consciousness of the beings/entities that participate in that reality.

It is my view that consciousness is the number one force for creation and not matter/energy.

[DaftFader]

OB!
your such a one trick donkey :laugh_at:

[MisterDuck]

next time i'm at a rave i'm gonna request the soundsystem to turn off for 10 minutes whilst i pray to the east

[DaftFader]

next time i'm at a rave i'm gonna request the soundsystem to turn off for 10 minutes whilst i pray to the east

:laugh_at:

[XLeanne06X]

http://zeitgeistmovie.com/

the beginning of this movie is based on religion, it provides an interesting view on it. There are some good points in it, but its only believable to a certain extent, i'll let you decide how much of it you can believe....
by the way its about 2hours long so make sure u've got nothing to do ...and a good supply of munchies :weee:
enjoy =)