MORE than 100,000 young UK Muslims

[timid rabbit]

Islam youths are 'rejecting UK'

MORE than 100,000 young UK Muslimshold extremist or anti-British beliefs, a shock report suggests today.

Tens of thousands think Muslims who switch religions should be punished by death.

More than a third want Taliban-style Sharia law, which regards women rape victims as guilty and says adulterers should be killed by stoning.

And more than one in ten of the 16 to 24-year-olds polled “admire” Osama bin Laden’s al-Qaeda and other terror groups.

The survey was carried out last month for centre-right think tank Policy Exchange.
Census figures show there are about 320,000 British Muslims in the age group polled — suggesting 100,000 are rejecting British values and culture.
http://images.thesun.co.uk/images/white.gif

The poll found three-quarters think women should cover their whole face with a veil. Four out of ten plan to send their kids to Islamic-only schools.

The Policy Exchange report says: “There is a growing religiosity amongst the younger generation of Muslims.

“They feel they have less in common with non-Muslims and show a stronger preference for Islamic schools and Sharia law.”

Security chiefs have warned ministers that Britain is almost certainly facing another terror strike by home-grown fanatics.

The poll reveals only six per cent of youngsters believe the Muslim Council of Britain represents their views.

That is a huge blow to Tony Blair who believes the body can play an important part in improving

Taken from: http://www.thesun.co.uk/article/0,,2-2007040620,00.html

[General Lighting]

its worrying but worth remembering this is 100,000 out of about 1.5 million Muslims in the UK (there are roughly as many as there are Catholics) so its not a major percentage.

I reckon (and this is more worrying IMO) that if you polled any group of "angry young men " with a strong sense of group identity and their self-importance - whether they were Muslims, or members of any race or even suburban kids who think they are "ghetto youth" and got truthful answers from them you'd find a similar proportion of these young men with "extremist" views.

They maybe wouldn't support Sharia law but I get the impression a lot of younger lads from all races/cultures seem to have less respect for womens rights, (or the rights of anyone they don't agree with) and are far more prepared to use violence to achieve their desires.

If they don't look up to terrorists they certainly look up to cultural icons of "hard men" and "fighters", and are becoming less tolerant to others who don't fit the ideals of their "community", whether its by race, gender, lifestyle etc; and if they can overpower or control people they will do so, unless or until a conventional authority (such as the criminal justice system or security services) intervenes...

harsh, but thats the way I am seeing society go...

[miss bassets]

ok i kno this may sound racist but thats not my intention, if they feel that way about the uk n the way things r done here, y do they continue to live here n more n more everyday emigrate here even tho they openly admit thier heavy dislike of our culture, n wot im beginning to c is non muslims showing less compassion n consideration for the muslim community because if they cant respect our values then y shud we respect thiers, the racism card had been played enuff time to wake up to the real issues

[USE]

i wonder how many white british people hold extreme "anti-british" beleifs? i certainly do, i think any reasonable person can see that britain in terms of its internation position and foreign policy is hiddeously corrupt, aggressive and greedy. i dont see why someone should leave a country just because they hate the government. i dont think the muslims actually hate britons per se, but more what this country represents to teh rest of teh world, which is fair enough.

in many ways i am "anti-british" if that means questioning the way our country is run. im sure that by the same token raves could be seen as "anti-british". i dont thik its a very helpful term, and smacks of McCarthy era "anti-american" witch hunts. part of a healthy democracy is a constant questioning of the state in which we live. muslims have brought a fresh perspective on british life, and i for one welcome that.

[miss bassets]

i for 2 welcome that! lol, thas exactly how i feel but i was on bout the belief women shud wear viels people hu comit adultery shud b stoned to death ect, as much as i dislike our goverment n aspects of our culture i wud b a part of it a hundred times over if it ment the death penelty ect neva became a part of it agen,its the people hu dispise our culture and hate what the uk may represent but still choose to cum here in search of a beter life that get my goat, i duno the point im tryin to make sounds much beter in my head

[globalloon]

its the people hu dispise our culture and hate what the uk may represent but still choose to cum here in search of a beter life that get my goat

that makes no sense at all

there is a lot about this country that i despise; starting wars for oil, the way asylum seekers are treated, trade policies that help to keep two thirds of the world hungry, ever decreasing personal liberty

but i continue to live here because i have a pretty good quality of life

the fact that someone from another country chooses to come here and work hard to live a better life doesn't mean they automatically have to agree with every aspect of british culture / society. we're such a divided society anyway that that would be impossible

i duno the point im tryin to make sounds much beter in my head

that's probably because it's not a logical thought

[globalloon]

i think this is relevant

http://www.firstworldwar.com/features/christmastruce.htm

how much of your fear about other people is based on personal experience? hjow much is based on what you have read (written by people with a strong agenda for hate)?

[miss bassets]

my fear of other people ?? hahaha naaaaaaaaaaa

[globalloon]

my fear of other people ?? hahaha naaaaaaaaaaa

fear of some unknown intention of some vague group you haven't met but feel sure must be out there waiting to do some kind of wrong. it must be true cos it said so on ther news

[miss bassets]

uhhhhhhhhh nope think ya got the rong end of me stick like

[globalloon]

uhhhhhhhhh nope think ya got the rong end of me stick like

so what are you saying? to me it looked like you're saying people have to agree with british people to come and live here

[miss bassets]

no not agree with the british, dif opinions add a much needed diversity, but im speakin from personal experience wher iv met peeps hu'v cum here for a beter life, studying ect n they hold no respect for the uk by thier own admission, i dont agree with a hell of a lot our country stands for but im still hold a respect for the place and im grateful i live here because its givin me privliges i wudnt hav had otherwise.

i wud guess that the majority of peeps hu live here regardless of origin disagree with a lot of stuff that our goverment does n that shud b sumthing we unite over n we must if we ever want things to change. the negitivity that peeps feel towards our country is dividing us.

[General Lighting]

i wud guess that the majority of peeps hu live here regardless of origin disagree with a lot of stuff that our goverment does n that shud b sumthing we unite over n we must if we ever want things to change. the negitivity that peeps feel towards our country is dividing us.

exactly - look at what is happening at the moment; it seems that random individuals who disagree with the policy of certain organisations are sending bombs to their staff, hurting others who can't make a change to policy anyway (post room staff don't have a lot of power in corporate circles..)

[noname]

I'd take anything reported by the sun with a pinch of salt personally, and doubly so when they are quoting from the findings of a centre right "think tank" (bit of an oxymoron IMO...:wink:)

The report is based on a stastistical survey, and statistics is the art of lying by numbers (you can make the numbers say anything if you have an agenda - starting out with a supposition and then finding the data to support it is not terribly hard, and is responsible for many "proven" theorems that are in fact complete toss - the scientist has started by saying "I believe X, so will experiment to prove it", and by doing so broken the cardinal rule of science - Objectivity...)

If you wanted to prove that young people in the UK were all E heads and love partying you go and conduct your poll outside dance clubs, or do it on PV or somesuch... Then you ask leading or ambiguous questions ("Do you think all E heads should be jailed" - likely to get a no from most non E heads as well).

The stuff about faith only schools though - something I've never agreed with. Schools that have children from one religious group only are an entirely evil invention IMO - no parent should force their child to believe in their religion, and indoctrinating them at such an early age, using their education to guide them down a particular path is entirely wrong. Religious belief is a personal thing (mostly because they are generally pretty whacky :wink:), and children should be allowed to grow up, and make their own decisions about their beliefs. Indoctrinating them seems to me the act of someone who is scared that their own beliefs are proper whacky, and won't be shared by their children without proper "guidance".

[Space Master]

Quoting timid_rabbit 's original post:

"Tens of thousands think Muslims who switch religions should be punished by death."

I've never met any that think that.

"More than a third want Taliban-style Sharia law, which regards women rape victims as guilty"

* That is a really serious thing to say, do you have any quotes from any source texts? You shouldn't make stuff like this up about anyone, nor pass it around, if it's not true. *

"And more than one in ten of the 16 to 24-year-olds polled “admire” Osama bin Laden’s al-Qaeda and other terror groups."

I wonder why "admire" is put in inverted commas. Did they actually use the word "admire". Nah, the ones l know don't think that, they either like cruising in their cars at weekends after work or they are starting families and want a future for themselves. A bit like everyone else. Have you ever personally, in real life, met anyone that thinks that? This is pure venom you're spitting out.

"The survey was carried out last month for centre-right think tank Policy Exchange."

Rrrright.

"The poll found three-quarters think women should cover their whole face with a veil."

3/4? I don't think so. The vast majority see it as voluntary or they just reject it outright.

"Four out of ten plan to send their kids to Islamic-only schools."

Nah, they mostly want grammar schools and then medical schools at uni. Or engineering degrees, the boring gits. Anyway, there are lots of Roman Catholic, Anglican, Jewish etc. schools. I think Oxford and Cambridge were originally Anglican schools.

You need to stop treating tabloids as encyclopaedias.

The kind of stuff you've been saying in this and other posts really bothers me, timid_rabbit, sorry. I seem to remember that lots of muslim women and girls got systematically raped in Yugoslavia. And they are among the lucky ones. The others got burnt alive and crazy sh*t like that, so for someone to then accuse such victims of the very same crimes a few years later, it doesn't matter what newspaper you're quoting from, are your quotes based on facts? Please, l really need to see some quotes from religious texts saying that a woman that has been raped is guilty, and that it's only the women that get stoned for adultery.

I thought dance music started from Acid House, and one of the slogans of the Acid House movement was that it bought all religions and walks of life together. Not that it was a religious or spiritual movement, it just made everyone special. These kinds of postings are the antithesis of the roots of the movement.

[Space Master]

no not agree with the british, dif opinions add a much needed diversity, but im speakin from personal experience wher iv met peeps hu'v cum here for a beter life, studying ect n they hold no respect for the uk by thier own admission..

I doubt it. And did they say "oi, l just thought l'd mention, l've got no respect for the UK".

It's true, a lot of Asians, muslims in particular, are ghetto-ised. They make a point of dressing as a means of identifying with another country. They should just avoid living in the UK if they reject the country so much. It's also true that they never asked for multilingual leaflets and roadsigns and holocaust denial. That's just a hatchet job by some sarcy white politician. It encourages racism, most of them being Asian.

I think Britain should stop inviting backward peasants into the UK and then saying "arrrgh they're invading, arrrgh look at 'em, they're so different". The authorities should either not invite them at all, or should be more selective in who is invited. But inviting them and then splattering them with prejudice is just wrong. I really don't see how immigrants can be blamed for coming to the UK as if they planned the whole thing themselves. It's the authorities that invites them.

[Angel]

It's not something Timid_rabbit have written..It's from an article in The Sun Online..

Just to point that out

http://www.thesun.co.uk/article/0,,2-2007040620,00.html

There was a link in the top of the page!!!!

[Space Master]

I know, and l accounted for that in the original message.

Anyway, l'd really like to see this rape quote in a source text.

[General Lighting]

I think a lot of young Asian men have tried to integrate, found themselves being knocked back by various forms of prejudice from both white and older Asian people with traditional religious/cultural views, and then "fight back" by forming these militant groups which are really no different from any other criminal gang organisation that "represents their ends".

This problem was about in the early 1990s, (there were militant Muslim groups in my university, they even tried to recruit me when I was going through a bad time in my life and was about to leave the place anyway. Of course I turned them down as I preferred partying, drugs and my wide group of friends from all races and cultures..

The groups were mainly comprised of young men from Pakistan and similar countries, who were basically "street gangsters with A-levels and degrees". They used (and probably still use) a number of tactics ranging from street robbery to credit card fraud and theft of high value motor cars (using the IT skills they learned in their courses!) to fund their activities.

The movement towards extreme violence such as the use of IEDs and terrorist acts is however very recent, and has definitely been fuelled by tensions caused by the Iraq war.

the Asian community themselves warned the British authorities several times about these groups and were either ignored, or the authorities did not make the connection between the criminal gangs and militancy, so the problem was left to fester for a generation, I'm hardly surprised there are now serious problems today.

OTOH Like I said you'd probably find many young men of any race/religion/culture who are prepared to use violence and agreession in their lives, and many do unless they find better alternatives or are thwarted by law enforcement or security forces.

Also there is still a lot of envy, as British Asian businesspeople are now competing hard in the marketplace, winning and many have a lot of money and power - there are many who never liked this in the first place and are really angry now.

Because of this global competition and outsourcing/offshoring "positive multiculturalism" (i.e genuine acceptance of people from other countries/cultures) is IMO under a lot of threat - 5-10 years ago you would never have had ravers complaining so much about immigrants, but when they are being made redundant due to their jobs going to other countries many of even the most "right-on" people eventually get angry and hateful.

[Space Master]

I did already make explicit most of what you wrote in that message, GeneralLighting, l think.

What l'm saying is: there are some, especially in the first generations of immigrants, that are not integrated. They were invited over thinking it would be all hunkydory, they weren't told that they needed to make adjustments to suit a new environment. The end result was that much of the local UK population didn't like them, and they themselves probably didn't enjoy life in the UK. But people can't just solely pile the blame on the immigrants. In fact, like l said, most of the blame would be attributed to the polititians that invited them, for not being selective in who they bought over. I think America is much more stringent.

And that is all the more relevant now, when jobs are in short supply etc. But it's just not an excuse for people to hate immigrants. There's not enough reason to. Hate is a really strong thing that can't be spewed out without good cause.

Oh and as for racism, l feel people should be allowed to think and feel whatever they want, be it anti or pro, as long as it can be reasoned through. Lack of reason = ignorance. It's ignorance of the actualities of the situation that l am protesting at here. The intricacies, the ins and outs. People just saying the immigrants are rapists, they have hijacked the UK, etc. If it's true then it's true. But is it true? Has anyone actually found out the facts for themselves or are they just being armchair haters?

From what l've seen on the internet so far, it's been the latter. So much hate flying around these days. It's just sad. I don't mean to sound self-righteous. But to me, hating takes real effort, l just find it hard to hate, so l'm always shocked at how easily other people hate, for the flimsiest of reasons. I don't consider myself to be a do-gooder, l just find the level of hate on the streets these days really difficult to attain in my own self.

[General Lighting]

I did already make explicit most of what you wrote in that message, GeneralLighting, l think.
there are some wider and more complex issues though, firstly I don't think many are aware of how this problem was ignored by three successive governments throughout the 90s, plus I think it goes wider than just "lack of integration".

I agree with you there is more hate about, but I actually think a lot of this hate isn't even really due to race or religion, but the ruthless competitiveness of modern society today.

No one really cared about what Muslims did until they started going bang on the streets of London, and young Muslims didn't start blowing themselves up in Western nations until these nations repeatedly started engaging in military action to secure oil resources.

you even this hate and competitiveness it on the dance scene. Not terrorist bombs of course, it usually stops at CS gas attacks on venues, but you do see the stuff like angry faces, lads who always want a fight and DJ's trying to sabotage each others sets....

[Space Master]

Yerrrrr... l never used to understand why people needed to be nasty on booze when l was a teenager, but now l've found myself saying the daftest things and doing the most abhorrent stuff when drunk, e.g. weeing several times on my way home from a club, in alleyways, and even being tempted to wee on someone's parked bike, and being tempted to karate kick a car window and then run off (lucky l didn't, l don't think it would've been hard for the owner to rush out and catch up with me, staggering all over the place).

Mixmag once did an article called "Booze in the house" (as opposed to "Who's in the house") in the mid-90s, astutely commenting on how the breweries had taken over from the pill dealers.

DJs sabotaging each other's sets? That's dark. I know that there is a lot of antagonism between rival soundsystems in Jamaica, so l suppose, like the musical influences, that aspect would reach here too.

Anyway, l'm going to start a new thread, bye!

[faz44max]

Taken from: http://www.thesun.co.uk/article/0,,2-2007040620,00.html
i am a muslim and i personely think i am the most intergrated muslim in the uk . i have the most amount of respect for my fellow britts who respect me . and even the ones that dont respect me i will give them a chance to get to know me then make up there mind . but i still feel pissed at our goverment and our media just like millions of other britts . but just because i am a muslim who feels like that then i am put in to a statistic by the media and and some elements of society. what the problem is in the uk is arrogence people dont really understand islam the media only writes and shows all the negative people and things and the common people just see that part of it. you can compare it to the freeparty people you never hear the media report saying anything positive about the partys so the rest of society think that we are all drug taking scum who have no jobs or values i own 3 of my own businesses employ about 27 people when i tell some of my customers what i do on my weekends they say i didnt think you would be in too all of that . then i tell them the reason why i go to freeparties all the positive thing then they understand better . thats what everybody should do get to understand islam a bit better. there allways so much negative stuff about woman in islam but muslims treat and respect there women just as more then any other society or culture . i wish i had a chance to sit in a room with lots of people and chat with them then i would be able to explain everything a lot better . a lot of people in this forum have a lot more understanding than most people in mainstream society anyway.

[General Lighting]

you can compare it to the freeparty people you never hear the media report saying anything positive about the partys so the rest of society think that we are all drug taking scum who have no jobs or values i own 3 of my own businesses employ about 27 people when i tell some of my customers what i do on my weekends they say i didnt think you would be in too all of that . then i tell them the reason why i go to freeparties all the positive thing then they understand better . thats what everybody should do get to understand islam a bit better. there allways so much negative stuff about woman in islam but muslims treat and respect there women just as more then any other society or culture . i wish i had a chance to sit in a room with lots of people and chat with them then i would be able to explain everything a lot better . a lot of people in this forum have a lot more understanding than most people in mainstream society anyway.

well said - you remind me a lot of of a former work colleague who is Muslim and was once a raver but calmed down due to family/work (not religious) commitments - and indeed from talking to him I learned a lot about what Islam is really like and how the terrorism/crime was the work of a small minority (and of course religious criminals/terrorists have existed for many years, they still cause problems in Ireland and even occasionally in mainland Britain).

I am British Asian but not Muslim (although I did briefly have a Catholic upbringing) and I think that British Asians as a whole are often widely misunderstood, or often hated/envied because we as a community have gained a lot of political and economic power through our own hard work, and a set of shared values and morals (which are common to but not exclusive to the Asian community...)