Subutex usage warning (split from main heroin thread)

[Raj]

I am posting the following on behalf of another board member :

:hopeless::hopeless::hopeless::hopeless::hopeless: :hopeless:

heroin and subutex both have potentially very strong withdrawl symptoms althought the usual individual withdrawl effect are not too bad

the problem arises when, in the grip of a very powerful withdrawl, someone takes the two drugs together in very large doses. This can cause a serious oedema which can be fatal if the pressure of liquid is such that it bursts the body's cells thus liquefying the internal organs and causing death as a result

this information is not on the drug information sheets which come with the product; they only warn against the withdrawl symptoms

[B]their personal experience:

a friend of mine died like this 5 or 6 years ago, he was clucking [in withdrawl] and took a large amount of subutex which did nothing. Later he found methadone and swallowed this too...

a few minutes later he complained of stomach pain and pain everywhere else as well

We did not pay too much attention initially, until he started to piss and shit himself, then we called the Ambulance. By the time they arrived, he was not shitting anything other than blood, they took him away and he died during the night.

no one normally dies that brutally; it is surely a consequence of the combination of both drugs but by any measure this is a brutal and violent way to go


:hopeless::hopeless::hopeless::hopeless::hopeless:

[Agent Subby]

I am posting the following on behalf of another board member :

:hopeless::hopeless::hopeless::hopeless::hopeless: :hopeless:

heroin and subutex both have potentially very strong withdrawl symptoms althought the usual individual withdrawl effect are not too bad

the problem arises when, in the grip of a very powerful withdrawl, someone takes the two drugs together in very large doses. This can cause a serious oedema which can be fatal if the pressure of liquid is such that it bursts the body's cells thus liquefying the internal organs and causing death as a result

this information is not on the drug information sheets which come with the product; they only warn against the withdrawl symptoms

[B]their personal experience:

a friend of mine died like this 5 or 6 years ago, he was clucking [in withdrawl] and took a large amount of subutex which did nothing. Later he found methadone and swallowed this too...

a few minutes later he complained of stomach pain and pain everywhere else as well

We did not pay too much attention initially, until he started to piss and shit himself, then we called the Ambulance. By the time they arrived, he was not shitting anything other than blood, they took him away and he died during the night.

no one normally dies that brutally; it is surely a consequence of the combination of both drugs but by any measure this is a brutal and violent way to go


:hopeless::hopeless::hopeless::hopeless::hopeless:

Nice one for that Raj.
Yep subutex should be respected for it's qualities in helping people detoxing from their D.O.C. (drug of choice) and should not be mixed with other powerful opiates/opiods. Can't understand why that person (who allegedly was in full w/d's) didn't benefit from the subutex though, because you have to wait until you are in w/d's before you take your first dose. Unless he swallowed the subutex instead of taking it sublingually (disolved under the tongue), because then it wouldn't work.

I'm only on 4mg's of subutex and will start to taper once my relapse prevention programme can be fully adhered to. Once I find some accomodation I should be ready to taper off the subutex slowly and sensibly.:wink:

[Raj]

i am not sure how they took the subutex

regardless this is a serious problem which may arise if the 24 hour period is not observed:hopeless: and it sounds like a very nasty way to go too:hopeless:

[Agent Subby]

Hmmmmm! Maybe it was caused by an acute allergic reaction. But subutex should be always taken under the supervision of a trained 'worker'. It's a partial agonist, therefore you should never mix it with another powerful opiate/opiod because it will throw you into acute withdrawals (very nasty).:crazy: :crazy:

[Raj]

further information from the same person:


I think you should know that subutex is a liquid in its original form; in fact the tablet is acting as nothing more than a blotter.
They make it into tablets in the manufacturing plant and all the white stuff is only corn starch. They do this to prevent people injecting it (officially) or (unnofficially) to kill as many as possible in as short a time as possible.

[Raj]

i am worried by the idea that subutex would have such a serious adverse drug interaction and no one seems to know much about it

even one person dying like this is too many IMO

i realise that its use should be closely supervised especially at first but i am of the opinion that people need to know that when you mix methadone and subutex it is potentially lethal [even if it is rare]

i would hate someone i know to go like this:hopeless:

[Agent Subby]

Sorry this is long winded but it is very informative.The following is a bunch of information I have extracted from numerous posts and resources. I hope this post will help anyone make an informed decision about detox, maintenance, and tapering.

Listed below is a Frequently asked Questions section.

Summary of Suboxone, Subutex, and Buprenex.

Buprenorphine is the active ingredient in Suboxone, Subutex, and Buprenex. Suboxone has a added ingredient called Naloxone. This was added to prevent abuse, and the Naloxone in Suboxone will allegedly cause immediate withdrawal if the Suboxone is injected or possibly snorted. Naloxone has also been known to induce withdrawal (wd) symptoms when some people are initially starting treatment, therefore some Drs will initially induct patients with Subutex which is just Buprenorphine without any additives.

Due to the fact that Sub has only been available for a couple of years in the United States there are a lot of questions that arise. Doctors are very misinformed about proper dosages, discontinuation of use, the existence of withdrawal symptoms, and length of withdrawal. This is due in part that most documentation pertaining to treatment, has conveniently been written to promote this medication as a harmless, pain-free way of detoxification and treatment for addiction. Most people are unaware that buprenorphine is a potent opioid with a strength 50 times greater than morphine. The only reason it is considered safe is because of its partial agonist abilities, a partial agonist will only get you high or stimulate your receptors to a certain point, then it actually blocks itself out... so in actuality, taking more or high doses will do nothing but get you sick. A normal dose after you are stable for is around 6mg to 8mg. If your Dr is prescribing you amounts much higher than that (like 24mg to 96mg) then you Dr. does not have much practical experience with this medication.

So many questions have been asked regarding quitting sub, and dealing with the shockingly miserable and lengthy withdrawal symptoms that I have compiled a list of some of the frequently asked questions regarding this subject.

Prior to reading the FAQ section of this post please be aware that this stuff is NOT GOSPEL/ or written in stone there is always a chance that you have a fast metabolism, or just the right combination of brain chemistry to heal quicker. Everyone is different so please dont get discouraged no matter what you are doing, these figures are a compilation of many people that discontinued Suboxone -buprenorphine and posted their experience.

Question- How long should I stay on sub for?
Answer- This is a really tough decision, at least if you are armed with information you can make a informed choice, and be aware of potential pitfalls. The general rule of thumb seems to be that the shorter you are on sub the shorter the wds and recovery time.....However, if you are a chronic relapser, coming off years of MMT, or you just know that you are not prepared for sobriety then perhaps a longer stay might be in your best interest. Just remember that the wds from sub could last over a year if you stay on it for too long. A quick (less than 21 day stay on sub) always seems like the best/easiest option. Once you begin treatment with sub its best to get a sobriety plan in place right away. A plan can be any type of support that will help you stay away from the drugs that got you on the sub to begin with. Some people go to NA/AA meetings, some folks use alternative programs, support groups, or simply coming to this board for support. The posts that always seem to get the quickest responses around here, are from people that have cravings and need some help ASAP. People are almost always here if you need them for support.

When you hand a bottle of any type of opioids to a addict for self-administration, regardless of the partial-agonist properties (The inability to get higher) they will generally abuse them. Or in the very least try to feel "better than normal", this type of behavior is common in most addicts, and you could potentially run into trouble if, or when they decide to stop due to "behavioral dependance". Its better to think of this med as a treatment rather than a cure. Just try to be careful and remember that this is just another drug and not some magic pill or cure for addiction.

I am sure your Dr. Seems like a great/supportive/understanding person. But if they tell you that the wds from sub are going to be mild, or tell you to stay on it as long as you like, then they are misinformed. Sub wds are rarely mild and due to the extremely long life, they will last for a very long time. Most of the literature and research done on sub seem to promote this miracle pill mentality. Buprenorphine is just another opioid, and no matter what excuses you can come up with or rationalizations, this is still drug replacement therapy just like methadone. Sub has been nicknamed methadone-lite or the lesser of two evils. It is addictive and a real bitch to get off, just be aware of these factors when making a decision.

Question- What is a good taper plan?
Answer- For a quick, less than 21 day detox a 1mg reduction every other day seems to work for most people. The less than 21 days time frame is assuming that your body has not yet become re-addicted to the sub. People that stay on sub roughly past the 21 day mark seem to report a much more difficult time discontinuing sub when they try.
The first few days of sub induction its important to stay at the highest doses that dont make you sick. Most people start out between 8mg or 12mg, and after about 3 to 5 days the wds from your previous drug will begin to fade and that is when its best to start reducing your dose. Everybody is different, so if you really begin to feel wd symptoms when trying to taper, just take a little bit more to make yourself comfortable. For most people initially taking sub, a dramatic reduction will rarely be felt at all, and like previously mentioned..if it does, just take a little more!

A pill cutter or razor can be used to achieve the lower dosages, sub is also available in 2mg pils.

Day 1 (8mg to 12mg) - If all you needed was less than simply find your dose and reduce a little slower or in 1mg doses.
Day 2 (8mg to 12mg) Once a day.. or split into (2) 4mg or 6mg doses
Day 3 (8mg to 12mg)
Day 4 (6mg to 10mg)
Day 5 (6mg to 10mg)
Day 6 (6mg to 8mg)
Day 7 (4mg to 8mg)
Day 8 (4mg to 6mg)
Day 9 (4mg to 6mg)
Day 10 (2mg to 4mg)
Day 11 (2mg to 4mg)
Day 12 (2mg to 3mg)
Day 13 (1mg to 2mg) (at around this point you may start to feel the reductions)
Day 14 (1mg to 2mg)
Day 15 (1mg to 2mg)
Day 16 (.5mg to 1mg) (you can stop at this point if you are ready)
Day 17 (.5mg to 1mg)
Day 18 (.5mg to 1mg)
Days 19 to 21- (.25mg to .5mg) if you can break/cut the pills this small, this low amount will make the wds as mild as possible. A long drawn out taper is not really needed if you are not yet physically addicted to the sub, so feel free to make up your own plan, just try to jump at around the 1mg mark for the easiest overall time. (Short term sub detoxes only)

FOR LONGER TERM USE TAPERS- You can follow the same schedule as above, due to the long half life sometimes it takes up to three days to feel dose reductions. Also try to drag out the .25 and .50 mg as long as you can, if you can get away with every other day dosing that would be even better. The reason for such a long drawn out taper towards the end is to reduce the amount of sub you have in your body when you do finally stop. People have reported much milder wd symptoms that have used sub for longer periods of time if they paid their dues with a long drawn out partially painful/uncomfortable taper at extremely low doses. These low tapers lasted weeks up to a month at .5mg doses. For a lot of us addicts, this method for controlling our dosages is pretty difficult. If you just jump when you get down to .5mg your wds wont really be too bad. The problem with stopping sub is not really the severity of the wds, but the length of time they last for. And then there is always a very good chance that the PAWS (Post Acute Withdrawal Symptoms) will follow after the acute wds have subsided or stopped.

Question- What happens if I jump off at a higher dose?
Answer- Most people that have jumped off at higher doses that have been on sub for long term have reported extremely severe acute WD symptoms. Its best to get as low as possible, if you are a risk taker or just have have a extremely high tolerance for wds then just going for broke without a taper will be rough. We all started sub to reduce wds, so this method wouldnt be any easier than going cold turkey off our DOC (Drug of choice) and even if you were able to handle it, the PAWS would not be any shorter.

Question- Once I stop how long will it take before I feel any symptoms?
Answer- The half life of sub is about 37.5 hours, this means that it will take your body about a day and a half to expel 50% of whatever you took 37.5 hours prior. { If you took a 8mg dose at 8am you will still have about 4mg of sub in your body at 9:30pm the next day} You also have to take into consideration all the doses you took prior, they also stack up. So a 8mg dose you took almost 5 days ago will still be equal to around 1mg still in your body, plus add the amounts of all the doses after that together. This is why a low long taper is so important once you decide to quit. Especially if you are physically addicted to the sub. A lot of this half-life stuff has to do with how fast your metabolism works, but you will normally start feeling actual wd symptoms 24 to 72 hours after your last dose..The onset of the ACTUAL wds are watering eyes, yawning constantly, feeling tired and sluggish, about 12 hrs later the more harsher symptoms begin to appear.

How long the sub wd's will last, depends on two very crucial factors.
1) How long have you been on the sub for?
2) Did you taper? What stabilized dose did you jump off at?

Question-What are some of the wd symptoms I can expect?
Answer- Aches, pains, chills, jimmy legs (similar to Restless legs (RLS)), sneezing, diarrhea, and sleep difficulties (insomnia)... these symptoms and severity range a lot on the individual and the taper. These acute physical symptoms last a week to four weeks, and then by 4 to 6 weeks the individual is feeling pretty good physically again//(everybody is different, but these are the general times)
If you were on sub for a very long time, the chills and sleep difficulties seem to take a lot longer to feel ok again.
With a long drawn out taper most of the abovementioned symptoms are non- existent or mild . However these types of mild results seem to achieved by people that have actually suffered through many of the above symptoms during their long drawn out low dose taper for over 30 days. Meaning that they felt crappy and felt wd like symptoms during their entire taper (slight chills,fatigue,sleep trouble). A long drawn out taper may reduce or eliminate the acute wds, however anyone that has tried this method has still reported the inevitable PAWS. (A detailed description of PAWS is written below)

A less than 21 day detox usually yields a 3 week recovery period ( a week or more of PAWS)
A 21 day to 3 month stay on sub yields about a 4 to 6 week recovery period, some PAWS
A 3 to 6 month stay on sub yields about a 4 to 8 week recovery period, PAWS
A 6 month and longer stay on sub yields about a 6 to 10 week recovery period, and 3mos to 2 years of PAWS
The Actual wds from sub are really not that bad if you are jumping off at a low dose, however the biggest problem with sub wds is duration of wd's, not the intensity. It is similar to a REALLY bad flu.

Question- How long will these symptoms last?
Answer- This depends a lot on the taper, and how long you were actually on the sub for. The real strong acute stuff and sleeplessness only lasts for about 2 or 3 weeks, but the chills and just feeling crappy overall could last up to 12 weeks if you are a longer term user. And then just as you are beginning to feel a little better, a lot of people report a wave of extreme fatigue suddenly hits them. It feels like you are wearing a 500lb lead suit, and at this stage it is hard to complete almost any task, wiping your nose will take extreme effort! This massive fatigue lasts around 5 days and then partial energy slowly starts to restore over the upcoming days/weeks. Once this severe fatigue stage is over, it is usually followed by the PAWS. Which in the case of buprenorphine/sub wd's ... PAWS is the worst part of them all.

Question- What can I take to reduce/alleviate these symptoms?
Answer- Without getting into a huge explanation involving neuroscience. A lot of people report that a short acting opioid helps ease a good portion of the acute symptoms, the problem with this method is in a lot of cases, you are basically going back to the exact same drug that got you on the sub to begin with, which brings up the question..why not try tapering off your DOC instead of ever starting this treatment to begin with? As mentioned above, there are always good reasons for both sides of this argument.. Your tolerance for other opioids will also be a lot higher due to blocking abilities of buprenorphine (it sticks to your receptors and prevents other opioids from doing their job), and the half life of bup/sub is so high that your receptors are used to getting a constant flood of opioids from the sub. Taking another opioid before allowing your receptors a chance to clean off a bit (3 to 5 days) is like feeding a crumb to a lion, nothing will happen..But if you get a GIANT pile of crumbs (other opioids) you risk the chance for OD or just a HUGE waste of money.

A lot of people use imodium (loperamide) to help ease the acute wd symptoms of the sub wds (or any other opioid). IMODIUM IS NOT JUST TAKEN TO REDUCE/ELIMINATE DIARRHEA . Imodium/loperamide was actually formulated with synthetic molecules similar to demerol which is a VERY powerful synthetic opioid. Loperamide is a member of the same class of drug as is meperidine. Imodium has all the properties of an opioid without the ability to effect your brain receptors to a point of getting high. It is so strong that it will partially overide your receptors in the early stages of wd. It has been reported by plenty of people suffering from sub wds that it actually reduces the severity of most symptoms dramatically. A 8mg to 10 mg dose of lopermide should help ease wds, it sometimes takes up to 4hr to work. The liquid Imodium is allegedly faster acting. It may take a little more (12mg to 20mg), just please check all meds for interactions prior to taking them.

Please be warned- Since Imodium/Loperamide is an opioid it is physically addictive. Please keep your Imodium use limited and spaced out. The last thing you want to do is switch one addiction for another.. This rule goes for any other opioid as well. A 7 to 10 day stretch is about as close to the "getting re-addicted" safety zone as you want to get. Alternating/skipping days/weeks is also another way to avoid addiction.

Question- What if I switch or use another opioid to help with wds?
Answer- If you tapered low enough you may not need anything else. Switching to another full agonist opioid (a drug that gets you high) is like playing with fire. There is a good chance everything will work out ok, but there is also a chance that you can just get started on your old habits all over again. And this once again raises the question, why did you ever bother getting on the sub in the first place if you could control your opioid habit to begin with.

Question-What is PAWS (rebound)?
Answer- Post Acute Withdrawal Syndrome (PAWS) is a set of impairments that occur immediately after withdrawal from alcohol or other substances. The condition lasts from six to eighteen months after the last use and is marked by a fluctuating but incrementally improving course.

PAWS/Rebound-Many substances can cause rebound effects (significant return of the original symptom in absence of the original cause) when discontinued, regardless of their tendency to cause other withdrawal symptoms.. Occasionally light users of opiates that would otherwise not experience much in the way of withdrawals will notice some rebound depression as well. Extended use of drugs that increase the amount of serotonin or other neurotransmitters in the brain (opioids including buprenorphine) can cause some receptors to 'turn off' temporarily or become desensitized, so, when the amount of the neurotransmitter available in the synapse returns to an otherwise normal state after wd's, there are still fewer receptors to attach to, causing feelings of depression/fatigue until the brain re-adjusts (Receptors turn on again).

Buprenorphine PAWS/rebound seem to differ a bit from the typical/textbook definition of PAWS. The lingering effects from bup/sub seem to be more of fatigue, lack of motivation, or lack of energy that slowly restores over the course of months. Sometimes you feel ok, and a week later you will feel crappy again. Its VERY frustrating and unpredictable, and its almost impossible to gauge improvement on a day to day basis, some entire weeks/months are better than others. One thing that does appear to hold some validity, the longer you were on sub, the longer the PAWS will last. I would not state that you are feeling depression initially. However, feeling exausted, fatigued, and lazy for months is certainly a cause for depression all on its own.

Question- What can I take to reduce PAWS?
Answer- There are many supplements you can take to increase neurotransmitter production, but without many active or desensitized receptor sites there is no way to produce the proper balance of endorphins (dopamine, norepinephrine, and epinephrine) naturally to get absorbed by enough receptors to feel good. Time seems to be the best way to combat PAWS, and that is the most frustrating part of the whole ordeal.


Analogy of Failure from Buprenorphine-

Pre-Induction-You are fed up with your Drug Of Choice, You have tried to quit many many times on your own, you are so fed up with the fatigue, with the scoring, you dose just kept getting higher.

You have heard about suboxone through a friend, read about it , your Dr. spoke to you about it- you have only been told/heard great things (You may have even been warned, but you are so fed up with your addiction you will try anything.you might even swear it will only be short term)

Post-Induction- (if you get started on the right dose)
You feel GREAT, everything you imagined it would be it delivered on.. You feel normal again.(being a addict you may even experiment with a little extra just to see if you can feel better than normal) (a lot of people get started on way too high of a dose so they feel dizzy, nauseous, and get that infamous bup headache)

Once you feel normal again, you have extra energy , you are no longer in that loop of addiction, things just feel awesome. This is referred to as the "honeymoon phase", you want to shout it to the world, you tell anyone how great it is.you want to turn everyone on to this fantastic new discovery.

Sort of like the way somebody turned us on to drugs for the first time because they thought they were great too!

The Reality-
While on sub, your pupils are still pinned, you ARE still taking a opioid every single day, you are still constipated all the time. Sub is really strong, and the life is so much longer that your dosing is less frequent. So your old habits are initially broken. You say to yourself, why would I want to get off this when its making me feel so good/productive.

The TRUTH-
You really are not as normal as you think. Your perception of the real normal was distorted by your previous drug use. In actuality you are just not as high as you were before, being a partial agonist it only gets you high to a certain level. Your perceptions, feelings, actions are just slightly distorted. If you dont believe this, give a small piece of sub to a straight person and ask them how they feel, I tried that little experiment it wont be normal

The Failure-
After being on sub for a random amount of time- (usually 6months to 3 years) you begin to realize that you are beginning to feel foggy, distant, or removed. Your dosing will be needed to get out of bed, it will become your morning cup of coffee, you will plan your life around your dose, your old DOC behavioral habits will begin to revolve around the sub. normal will become disgusting.the fog will get worse and worse. Your fatigue will get more frequent. This is caused by a combination of decreased neurotransmitter production and temporary shut down of specific receptor sites.

Trying to stop-
Every week you swear to yourself you will start to taper, you make declarations like quitting smoking (by summer I will stop) every time you see the Dr you mention quitting or cutting back, he/she just smiles and gives you another script. You start to feel guilty about dosing around others, you realize that this is just another drug. With sub or MMT since the life is so long your brain loses this event horizon its just always high. This is one of the reasons that the wds and PAWS/Rebound are so notoriously long with longer life opioids, the receptors have shut down that naturally produce because they are unused. On sub your brain is always flooded with med. With other opioids these receptors still fire occasionally when the drug wears down, this is why wds are not as long from other drugs, and PAWS is more infrequent.

Hope this is of some help to anyone going down the subutex detox route:wink:
Thanks again for all your support and when I'm finally clean from this 13year of hellish exsistence I'm gonna PARTY!:bounce_fl :bounce_fl :bounce_fl :bounce_fl :bounce_fl :bounce_fl

[General Lighting]

I think there is a problem where it is seen as a panacea for opiate addiction, and there is overprescribing and diversion of supply to the black market; and may well be less strictly regulated in France.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/elsewhere/journalist/story/0,,1837207,00.html

[Raj]

you go Agent

give that shit up and we will dedicate our next radio slot to you as soon as you have:groucho: :groucho: :groucho:

go for itraaaraaaraaa
go for itraaaraaaraaa
go for itraaaraaaraaa


go go go:bounce_fl:bounce_fl:bounce_fl:bounce_fl

[Agent Subby]

I think there is a problem where it is seen as a panacea for opiate addiction, and there is overprescribing and diversion of supply to the black market; and may well be less strictly regulated in France.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/elsewhere/journalist/story/0,,1837207,00.html

Not read the Guardian link yet but I totally agree with you. A lot of peeps I've 'met' on a detox forum were prescribed too much of subutex. I know people on 64/32mg's of this opiate and are now paying the price. I've managed to stabilize on 4mg's and will find it a lot easier (hopefully) to taper than other poor souls. You only need a relatively low dose of subutex to feel the full effects. It's a good job I did some research before taking this option. It took me 12 years to get off methadone and I'm damned if I stay on this drug for too long! Bloody stupid quacks:crazy: .

[Raj]

:get_you::get_you::get_you:

[Agent Subby]

Any chance of making this into a sticky?raaa raaa raaa

[Agent Subby]

Not read the Guardian link yet but I totally agree with you. A lot of peeps I've 'met' on a detox forum were prescribed too much of subutex. I know people on 64/32mg's of this opiate and are now paying the price. I've managed to stabilize on 4mg's and will find it a lot easier (hopefully) to taper than other poor souls. You only need a relatively low dose of subutex to feel the full effects. It's a good job I did some research before taking this option. It took me 12 years to get off methadone and I'm damned if I stay on this drug for too long! Bloody stupid quacks:crazy: .

Please don't let me put any people off by going through the subutex detox programme. It still is THE BEST option of heroin detox but MUST be used under a FULLY trained professional drugs worker. When making the transition from methadone/physeptone to subutex;;
a) make sure you are down to at least 30mls daily.
b) make sure you give yourself enough time before taking your first dose of subutex (basically about 24/36 hrs after your last dose of methadone.
c) start off by taking a small dose of subutex and build up to you feel comfortable.
d) don't use any opiate/opiod and then immediately take subutex because it will throw you into precipitated withdrawals (very nasty, and I've been there) and you will end up in A&E.
e) because it being a partial agonist you only need a relatively SMALL dose to feel it's full effects. So if your DR. prescribes you a high dose he is NOT a fully trained subutex doctor.
f) try and taper rather sooner or later because the longer you leave it the more difficult it will be to get off.
g) try and read the above 'very long winded' post about subutex/suboxone/buprenorphine, because I copied it from the opiate detox.com website and is VERY informative.
h) finally good luck in your quest for an opiate free life. You CAN do it especially with all the love and support from these lovely people on PV. God Bless to you all. Stephen. AKA Agent Subby.:love: :love:

[Raj]

you beat me to it Agent :wink:

i was going to address that issue today raaaraaaraaa

well done mate and thank you for that:horay::horay::horay::horay::horay:

keep doing it Agent :love:

[cliffchuff]

could you explain how the incident in the first post occured physically as it dosen't make sense to me at all.

firstly if someone takes subutex after it has kicked in other opiates will not work as they cannot attatch to the brains receptors, that dosen't mean you can't overdose though as the respiritory effects of depressant are distinct from the highs (s'why peeps can feel straight/not high and still die innit)

the physical reactions you are describing could be because he had loads of opiates in his body then took subutex causing instant withdrawel (the shits etc) but as for the pissing shitting blood thats not through the drug or interaction and you can't die from withdrawel its just not nice.

he may have had some sort of ulcer/liver/kidney failure prehaps end stage hep C and the stress of withdrawel triggered a total body failure but if this was the case he was as good as dead sooner or later anyway <sad>

but there is no way the drugs could cause the effects you describe, sometimes I hear stories like this and iits a coincidence but people then tell it as fact and you end up with myths ---like methadone gets in your bones.


subutex is a much safer drug than methadone as you cannot OD on it unless you mix in other stuff and it has been used widely in France with no reported complications.

yes the good info about precipitating withdrawel in this thread is important, luckily using peeps seem more clued up about shit they punp into themselves these days.

[Agent Subby]

could you explain how the incident in the first post occured physically as it dosen't make sense to me at all.

firstly if someone takes subutex after it has kicked in other opiates will not work as they cannot attatch to the brains receptors, that dosen't mean you can't overdose though as the respiritory effects of depressant are distinct from the highs (s'why peeps can feel straight/not high and still die innit)

the physical reactions you are describing could be because he had loads of opiates in his body then took subutex causing instant withdrawel (the shits etc) but as for the pissing shitting blood thats not through the drug or interaction and you can't die from withdrawel its just not nice.

he may have had some sort of ulcer/liver/kidney failure prehaps end stage hep C and the stress of withdrawel triggered a total body failure but if this was the case he was as good as dead sooner or later anyway <sad>

but there is no way the drugs could cause the effects you describe, sometimes I hear stories like this and iits a coincidence but people then tell it as fact and you end up with myths ---like methadone gets in your bones.


subutex is a much safer drug than methadone as you cannot OD on it unless you mix in other stuff and it has been used widely in France with no reported complications.

yes the good info about precipitating withdrawel in this thread is important, luckily using peeps seem more clued up about shit they punp into themselves these days.

To be perfectly honest with you I don't understand how that incidence could have occurred either. It makes no sense to me. I honestly think there must have been other complications..I really just didn't want to upset the apple cart, but I'm glad you've brought it up. No one and I mean no one has ever died from the DIRECT symptoms of opiate W/D's. Very very uncomfortable yes but fatal? NO.

[General Lighting]

the original info was translated from French to start with. it is hard to follow and things could have also been lost in the translation.

of course it is impossible to confirm the cause of death without the autopsy report; I am not sure if they are made relatively public knowledge in France like they are in the UK; and even if we could trace the victims relatives it may be difficult trying to convince them to give out info about the loss of a family member in tragic circumstances to be debated and picked over on a public internet forum.

it may even be that no autopsy was done if the person was DOA as the health service staff simply did not have the resources to do this and there was clear evidence he was a drug addict. (I don't know the procedures in France!)

The combination of substances causing stress on an already damaged body seems the most plausible explanation for this unfortunates' demise.

[Agent Subby]

That seems to have cleared things up then G.L.
When raj posted this info I thought it was from a close friend of his.
Peace and love from a person of whom subutex has turned their life around. Certainly beats the hell out of methadone.
:love: :love:

[wickedwreckage]

Hmmmmm! Maybe it was caused by an acute allergic reaction. But subutex should be always taken under the supervision of a trained 'worker'. It's a partial agonist, therefore you should never mix it with another powerful opiate/opiod because it will throw you into acute withdrawals (very nasty).:crazy: :crazy:
DO YOU THINK ALL TRAINED WORKERS ARE HONEST...I'M SHURE THAT BIG
LABORATRY JUST MAKE SUBUTEX TO SAVE PEOPLE;FOR SHURE THEY JUST DON'T KNOW WHAT MONEY IS!THANKS SHERING PLOUGH,WHAT WONDERFULL WORLD.
HONESTY=LABORATORY???
CONTINUE TO NOT ASK YOURSELF THE REAL QUESTIONZ,IT'S REALLY MORE
EASER TO LIVE IN A WONDERFULL ALL ROSE WORLD/DON'T BELIEVE WHAT
LABORATORY CAN TELL,THEY HAVE BIG PROBLEMS WITH THE TRUTH,AND
ALSO CERTAIN "TRAINED WORKERS",THEY JUST WORK FOR THEM,THEY JUST DON'T KNOW WHAT SUBUTEX EXACTLY IS,THEY DON'T USE THAT SHIT;THEY JUST KNOW WHAT LABORATRY TOLD THEM ABOUT THEYRE
PRODUCT.DON'T BE BLIND PLEASE...:you_crazy:you_crazy:you_crazy

[Tank Girl]

IMHO Can be Good and bad in every one and everything


I Cant label all 'trained workers' or 'Labs' as I cant (and DONT!!!!) label all users (have only just read the last comment BTW)

[Agent Subby]

DO YOU THINK ALL TRAINED WORKERS ARE HONEST...I'M SHURE THAT BIG
LABORATRY JUST MAKE SUBUTEX TO SAVE PEOPLE;FOR SHURE THEY JUST DON'T KNOW WHAT MONEY IS!THANKS SHERING PLOUGH,WHAT WONDERFULL WORLD.
HONESTY=LABORATORY???
CONTINUE TO NOT ASK YOURSELF THE REAL QUESTIONZ,IT'S REALLY MORE
EASER TO LIVE IN A WONDERFULL ALL ROSE WORLD/DON'T BELIEVE WHAT
LABORATORY CAN TELL,THEY HAVE BIG PROBLEMS WITH THE TRUTH,AND
ALSO CERTAIN "TRAINED WORKERS",THEY JUST WORK FOR THEM,THEY JUST DON'T KNOW WHAT SUBUTEX EXACTLY IS,THEY DON'T USE THAT SHIT;THEY JUST KNOW WHAT LABORATRY TOLD THEM ABOUT THEYRE
PRODUCT.DON'T BE BLIND PLEASE...:you_crazy:you_crazy:you_crazy

All I can go off is MY own PERSONAL experience. And it has turned my life around. It's the only opiate where I've been able to keep stocks of that I haven't used. I could never have done this with methadone. Why on earth are you calling me blind by using a relatively low dosage of a drug that has stopped me from 'trying to find that next tenner to buy a bag of smack every few hours'. I find the fact of you calling me blind AND CRAZY a complete insult to my intelligence. I would suggest you did some thorough research on this subject before personally insulting me again. It's people like you that negate all the good work that the beautiful people have done for me. BTW I HAVE DONE EXHAUSTIVE WORK ON THIS SUBJECT. (we can both put our caps lock on). Sorry but I'm not having the 'lost in translation' as an excuse for this persons ineptitude this time.:head_bang :head_bang :head_bang

[wickedwreckage]

All I can go off is MY own PERSONAL experience. And it has turned my life around. It's the only opiate where I've been able to keep stocks of that I haven't used. I could never have done this with methadone. Why on earth are you calling me blind by using a relatively low dosage of a drug that has stopped me from 'trying to find that next tenner to buy a bag of smack every few hours'. I find the fact of you calling me blind AND CRAZY a complete insult to my intelligence. I would suggest you did some thorough research on this subject before personally insulting me again. It's people like you that negate all the good work that the beautiful people have done for me. BTW I HAVE DONE EXHAUSTIVE WORK ON THIS SUBJECT. (we can both put our caps lock on). Sorry but I'm not having the 'lost in translation' as an excuse for this persons ineptitude this time.:head_bang :head_bang :head_bang
my own personnal experience show me that subutex and methadone mix is not a great experience for an addict personn,it's not a subject to talk about,it's just a fact,you can tell you have to wait 24 hours between every
product,if a personn don't know that,he would have a great surprise and if
he took too much it would be his last experience.you can tell people to visit
a specialist,if they need something,they need something and can use everything that comes,i don't need any books or research to know what i
saw.then if you don't tell people about dangers of methadone and subutex
mix there is no intelligence,sorry.
and if you think subutex is not liquid at the beginning,"i would suggest you
did some thorough research on this subject".:argue_mad

[Tank Girl]

All I can go off is MY own PERSONAL experience. And it has turned my life around.

And that's the most important thing !!
keep on trucking Agent :bounce_fl

[General Lighting]

if the big bad people in authority really wanted to just kill all the heroin users they would have done so already without going to all the bother of introducting a "wonder drug" and in some parts of the world they do (like asian countries with mandatory death penalty)

incidentally in England a doctor who was himself once a heroin user managed to kill over 200 old people by giving them overdoses - took ages to catch him so thats how easy it is and so none of us blindly trust doctors just because they are "qualified"

there are also rumours that other doctors are killing addicts to "cleanse society" (the set up "rehab" clinics and then give overdoses) - but these are just rumours. Could just as easily have been an accident.

but most of the time here in Britain our health care workers do not normally try and deliberately kill their clients and are clued up about what they are giving them.

in the case of your unfortunate friend it is far more likely he was ill already and then took both methadone and subutex obtained on black market without checking dosage levels - the effects of the large dose both of these drugs and existing medical problems were too much for him.

are you able to get the autopsy report or coroners inquest report? in England these are public records (I do not know the situation in France).

[Agent Subby]

my own personnal experience show me that subutex and methadone mix is not a great experience for an addict personn,it's not a subject to talk about,it's just a fact,you can tell you have to wait 24 hours between every
product,if a personn don't know that,he would have a great surprise and if
he took too much it would be his last experience.you can tell people to visit
a specialist,if they need something,they need something and can use everything that comes,i don't need any books or research to know what i
saw.then if you don't tell people about dangers of methadone and subutex
mix there is no intelligence,sorry.
and if you think subutex is not liquid at the beginning,"i would suggest you
did some thorough research on this subject".:argue_mad First of all I suggest you read this.
Please don't let me put any people off by going through the subutex detox programme. It still is THE BEST option of heroin detox but MUST be used under a FULLY trained professional drugs worker. When making the transition from methadone/physeptone to subutex;;
a) make sure you are down to at least 30mls daily.
b) make sure you give yourself enough time before taking your first dose of subutex (basically about 24/36 hrs after your last dose of methadone.
c) start off by taking a small dose of subutex and build up to you feel comfortable.
d) don't use any opiate/opiod and then immediately take subutex because it will throw you into precipitated withdrawals (very nasty, and I've been there) and you will end up in A&E.
e) because it being a partial agonist you only need a relatively SMALL dose to feel it's full effects. So if your DR. prescribes you a high dose he is NOT a fully trained subutex doctor.
f) try and taper rather sooner or later because the longer you leave it the more difficult it will be to get off.
g) try and read the above 'very long winded' post about subutex/suboxone/buprenorphine, because I copied it from the opiate detox.com website and is VERY informative.
h) finally good luck in your quest for an opiate free life. You CAN do it especially with all the love and support from these lovely people on PV. God Bless to you all. Stephen. AKA Agent Subby.:love: :love:

[wickedwreckage]

if the big bad people in authority really wanted to just kill all the heroin users they would have done so already without going to all the bother of introducting a "wonder drug" and in some parts of the world they do (like asian countries with mandatory death penalty)

incidentally in England a doctor who was himself once a heroin user managed to kill over 200 old people by giving them overdoses - took ages to catch him so thats how easy it is and so none of us blindly trust doctors just because they are "qualified"

there are also rumours that other doctors are killing addicts to "cleanse society" (the set up "rehab" clinics and then give overdoses) - but these are just rumours. Could just as easily have been an accident.

but most of the time here in Britain our health care workers do not normally try and deliberately kill their clients and are clued up about what they are giving them.

in the case of your unfortunate friend it is far more likely he was ill already and then took both methadone and subutex obtained on black market without checking dosage levels - the effects of the large dose both of these drugs and existing medical problems were too much for him.

are you able to get the autopsy report or coroners inquest report? in England these are public records (I do not know the situation in France). don't you think subutex and methadone are a kind of "wonder drug" alot of poor people use it as drug,in france alot of people fix themselves with
subutex coz they need a fix and don't have often monney.i think they got
teyre wonder drug.
usualy doctors don't want to kill people,but labs are not doctors they are
buisness men,and doc infos comes from labs and governement,so think what
you want about it...
last thing,in france autopsy are not public at all i just don't know if they do one.police ask some questions but if you're not the saler you don't go
to the court,then you know nothing about,and it's classified.

[Agent Subby]

And then read this which was posted by a WELL INFORMED moderator named cliffchuff and then you might stop the personal insults. BTW this is the end of the matter.:head_bang :head_bang :head_bang could you explain how the incident in the first post occured physically as it dosen't make sense to me at all.

firstly if someone takes subutex after it has kicked in other opiates will not work as they cannot attatch to the brains receptors, that dosen't mean you can't overdose though as the respiritory effects of depressant are distinct from the highs (s'why peeps can feel straight/not high and still die innit)

the physical reactions you are describing could be because he had loads of opiates in his body then took subutex causing instant withdrawel (the shits etc) but as for the pissing shitting blood thats not through the drug or interaction and you can't die from withdrawel its just not nice.

he may have had some sort of ulcer/liver/kidney failure prehaps end stage hep C and the stress of withdrawel triggered a total body failure but if this was the case he was as good as dead sooner or later anyway <sad>

but there is no way the drugs could cause the effects you describe, sometimes I hear stories like this and iits a coincidence but people then tell it as fact and you end up with myths ---like methadone gets in your bones.


subutex is a much safer drug than methadone as you cannot OD on it unless you mix in other stuff and it has been used widely in France with no reported complications.

yes the good info about precipitating withdrawel in this thread is important, luckily using peeps seem more clued up about shit they punp into themselves these days.
__________________
'Inter faeces et urinam nascimur'

[Agent Subby]

READ the previous posts dude. Subutex/suboxone/buprenorphine hydrochloride/temsegic is a partial agonist. IN OTHER WORDS IT BASICALLY TELLS OTHER OPIATES TO FUCK OFF! OF COURSE YOU CAN OVERRIDE IT BY TAKING SHITLOADS BUT BY DOING THIS YOU ARE ON A SUICIDE MISSION.
Now please leave me to get my life in order with this LIFE SAVING DRUG.
I'd rather you just tell me to "FUCK OFF SMACK HEAD" than post a load of nonesense.:you_crazy :you_crazy :you_crazy
If you'd bother to take a minute of your time to read my previous posts it'd tell you that you've got to leave it till at least 24/36 hours after taking your LAST methadone dose before taking your FIRST subutex/suboxone/buprenorphine/temgesic dose.

[Angel]

:love: :love: :love: Subby please PM me now..

[wickedwreckage]

i think you don't understand i'm just speaking about methadone and subutex
interactions and not about other opiates,coz interactions with other opiates are really less dangerous,the drugs just have no effects(but it can be really
dangerous for an totaly addicted personn coz if he don't feel drug effects he
can do real crazy think for his life,here is the danger between "H" and subutex
for example).
i also respect subutex coz i stop taking heroin with it(u can read in the heroin
thread),i think it's just a shit for people who get fix,more dangerous than heroin for your vains.
but if u don't tell people about methadone and subutex interactions,you are
creating a mith.

[Tank Girl]

Now please leave me to get my life in order with this LIFE SAVING DRUG.
I'd rather you just tell me to "FUCK OFF SMACK HEAD" than post a load of nonesense.:you_crazy :you_crazy :you_crazy


I think you have the right idea Agent,

Any one reading all the posts will take what they want from them,
you can only educate (and give advise .. which is what you are doing brilliantly) and they will then make up their own minds,

your already helping others who read your informative posts, and can hear the daily progress you are choosing to make

[Agent Subby]

It's people like you Tank Girl who give me the strength to carry on. I thank you from the bottom of my heart for your love and support. That's the first time anger has reared it's ugly head inside me for a long long time time. All I want to do in life is to help as many people as possible, but I'll just have to totally ignore a certain poster in the future because ANGER is only one letter away from spelling DANGER.
BTW it was cliff chuffs post that I was defending but for some reason I got the brunt of it. Ah well the main thing is that I'm nearly 3 weeks clean from H. Peace and love to you Tank Girl.
:love: :love: :love:

[wickedwreckage]

I think you have the right idea Agent,

Any one reading all the posts will take what they want from them,
you can only educate (and give advise .. which is what you are doing brilliantly) and they will then make up their own minds,

your already helping others who read your informative posts, and can hear the daily progress you are choosing to make
HOW CUTE...

[Agent Subby]

i think you don't understand i'm just speaking about methadone and subutex
interactions and not about other opiates,coz interactions with other opiates are really less dangerous,the drugs just have no effects(but it can be really
dangerous for an totaly addicted personn coz if he don't feel drug effects he
can do real crazy think for his life,here is the danger between "H" and subutex
for example).
i also respect subutex coz i stop taking heroin with it(u can read in the heroin
thread),i think it's just a shit for people who get fix,more dangerous than heroin for your vains.
but if u don't tell people about methadone and subutex interactions,you are
creating a mith.
For Christ's sake ANY opiate interaction is dangerous. I really don't understand your issues with me. You might as well be saying mixing alcohol and barbiturates are dangerous. Well of course they're dangerous. Did you get a degree in stating the bleedin' obvious?

[Agent Subby]

HOW CUTE...

Consider yourself reported. You are now on ignore!

[Tank Girl]

because ANGER is only one letter away from spelling DANGER.
:love: :love: :love:

IMO Anger is a normal natural emotion that NEEDS expressing just like any other, its just how I express it that can be problematic. I tend to get verbal and sometimes down right nasty, but seeing as this is a public forum I'll just ignore what I believe to be comments intended to prevoke a negative reaction :you_crazy because quite frankly I cant see the point, esp as there's nothing wrong in BEING CUTE!!!

[Agent Subby]

IMO Anger is a normal natural emotion that NEEDS expressing just like any other, its just how I express it that can be problematic. I tend to get verbal and sometimes down right nasty, but seeing as this is a public forum I'll just ignore what I believe to be comments intended to prevoke a negative reaction :you_crazy because quite frankly I cant see the point.
That's exactly what I'm going to do now T.G.
How cute, LOL

[General Lighting]

the worst part of this is both of you are around the same age, have the same tastes in music and may even be trying to achieve the same thing (liveing life without being dependent on opiates) - so its fucking pointless arguing over the rights and wrongs of what combination of drugs you should (not) take when if you really want to be free it should be less and less of them in any case and however people choose to detox from these addictions..

[Agent Subby]

the worst part of this is both of you are around the same age, have the same tastes in music and may even be trying to achieve the same thing (liveing life without being dependent on opiates) - so its fucking pointless arguing over the rights and wrongs of what combination of drugs you should take when if you really want to be free it should be less and less of them in any case....

If you could please insert the not between should and take then I might take note. I am merely stating facts about subutex. It was the personal insults that made me lose it. Anyway if you read the posts clearly it was MOSTLY cliffchuff's (moderator) post that I was defending. I always take on board your excellent posts on your specialist field, so if you can't take mine on board on the subject of subutex detoxing then I'm at a complete loss. Maybe it is time for me to find love and support from another forum where my expertise on this subject will be appreciated more.

[Tank Girl]

so if you can't take mine on board on the subject of subutex detoxing then I'm at a complete loss. Maybe it is time for me to find love and support from another forum where my expertise on this subject will be appreciated more.

Again my opinion but 'dont throw baby out with the bath water'
maybe leave all this 'drug talk' / 'medication' for tonight and re-evaluate your feelings in the morning or not..... up to you

lots of other topics here we all can discuss......

[General Lighting]

If you could please insert the not between should and take then I might take note. I am merely stating facts about subutex. It was the personal insults that made me lose it. Anyway if you read the posts clearly it was MOSTLY cliffchuff's (moderator) post that I was defending. I always take on board your excellent posts on your specialist field, so if you can't take mine on board on the subject of subutex detoxing then I'm at a complete loss. Maybe it is time for me to find love and support from another forum where my expertise on this subject will be appreciated more.
I think there is a misunderstanding here....

I have never been an opiate addict so I don't know about the in and outs of detoxing by either substance...

I'm not actually commenting on the accuracy of the use of detox drugs or which are best as I don't have enough knowledge of this subject!

What I am getting at is that its a shame that both you and wickedwreckage are arguing when you are actually in very similar situation

both of you are people of a similar age and background; (only a few weeks ago I was exchanging messages with wickedwreckage about punks) perhaps only slightly separated by language and cultures....

you both come across as people who no longer want to be on opiates but have different ideas or motivations on how to achieve this.

but instead of people supporting each other we all end up arguing (happens a lot in the alternative lifestyle communities as people have strong personalities)

and whilst we do this and argue with each other dubya and blair (who somehow manage put aside their differences and keep a dubious "special relationship" going) and the mad religious people who convince youths to kill themsleves and others laugh at us, work together, and "make war not love" .... if we divide ourselves along petty lines like this and bicker at each other we are powerless to beat addiction or better our lives....

[Raj]

right i have read this bl**dy thread now :mad_curse:mad_curse:mad_curse:mad_curse:mad_curse :mad_curse:mad_curse

What i want to know now is how personal insults are advancing our understanding of what is a potentially lethal problem?

A concern about the legitimacy of the claim is not correctly handled by insulting the people asking the questions:you_smart:you_smart

it should be treated as a genuine question and replied to without jumping to the conclusion it was meant as a personal attack on you; if you get so angry you cant think straight then leave replying to posts until you can think clearly again please - getting angry does not help you communicate with others clearly

WW- you could have started by admitting that it was YOUR personal experience we were discussing here, something which no one actually knew until now [i would also like you to take a bit longer translating the english into french as i know english is not your first language and the kind of english in this thread is idiomatic (slang) so it is not particularly easy:hopeless::hopeless: if you are not sure if you have it right ask someone please]

AS - please dont let this be the reason you stop coming to PV - your experience of heroin and detoxing from it is invaluable to others who are reading this forum and i would be unhappy if you stopped being on PV because of this:hopeless::hopeless::cry:


ON THE THREAD TOPIC

i have read the french heroin and opiate addiction literature and while, i can find no notes on this, i did find some worrying stuff on injecting subutex and what it does to the circulatory system which does not exclude this possibility in any way and makes it plausible

it is distinctly possible that the death of a known drug addict would not have caused a postmortem to be performed as it would be attributed to the drug abuse and no further investigation would be made:hopeless::hopeless: and as has been said the results would not necessarily be available even if there were any [think about the time taken to release the postmortem results for princess Diana in the heat of the media glare?]

there were some very irresponsible comments made in this thread which i am about to go and remove as i find them offensive and potentially dangerous and i dont want this site to be linked with them in any way [ think through the consequences before you post next time please]

thank you
raj

[Ellycat]

wow i thought this was a peaceful forum. the first thread i read is about a drug i'm on because i'm an herorin addict who as managed to get off meth and on to subutex. I never met these 2 people arguing but can i put my 2penneth in plz.
I dont understand what that wicked wreckage person is going on about innit. The other guy called agent suby is talking just like my drug worker. Why doed wreckage keep accusing the other guy of saying that you should mix meth and subutex together? that suby geysor is saying it as it is innit. If u read what agent suby says, he or she says u shouldnt take meth and subutex together. so y does that other guy keep saying he is saying this. everyone knows that you get down to 30mills of meth before u change to subutex. and agent suby says it dead right when u should leave it for as lonl as posible before u take ur 1st subutex. no one i know would mix subutex with herroin or meth cause it doesnt work. i know this cause i tried it once. and wreckage says that if u inject subutex it fuks ur veins up more than herorin. but subutex is not for injecting anyway unless u get it in amps. So hes talking shit because if u inject any drug that u shouldnt inject then its bound to fuk ur viens up innit. Cant understand why that wreckage geyser is dissin subutex cause its stopped me from using smack. Y would anyone in there right mind want to mix anything with subutex anyway? IMO that wreckage bloke was shit stiring. Anyway enuff of my rambling on. but id just like to say a big up to that agent suby cause i can no where hes comeing from. maybe that wickedwreckidge is just jelous or summut innit. i hope theres nomore argueing on here cause my mate told me to come on here to read this agent subys posts to help me. But now hes gone innit.

[Ellycat]

and tank girl i think that wickedwreckidge was being sarkastic when he said how cute,

[Raj]

hiya Ellycat

how is your detox going? anything you would like to share with us?

its usually pretty peaceful around here - normally folks take the time to read posts carefully before going off the deep end:wink:

i am hoping agent subby will come back :bounce_fl:bounce_fl:bounce_fl:bounce_fl

take care
raj

[Tank Girl]

and tank girl i think that wickedwreckidge was being sarkastic when he said how cute,

i did get that! :bounce_fl :bounce_g:

[Ellycat]

its going relly good thank you for asking. I hope that agent suby comes back aswell cause somebody on this forum told me about him. i was hopeing to ask him for advice. someone told me he or she was a top person. why did that wreckage keep winding agent suby up though. do they not get on.
:bounce_fl :bounce_fl :bounce_fl :bounce_fl :bounce_fl :bounce_fl

[Ellycat]

i did get that! :bounce_fl :bounce_g:

soz. :hopeless:

[Tank Girl]

soz. :hopeless:

hey no worries!!!! :bounce_g: :bounce_fl

[Raj]

WW is french and does not speak [ok well maybe its read ] english well; if you are translating some of the english we use into french it does not come across the same way [humour, wit etc doesnt change language well in many cases] and he is reacting to what he thinks is being said [which is very likely not what was actually said]

and then it all got very heated :you_crazy:you_crazy:you_crazy:you_crazy and degenerated into a flame war [personal insults slinging session] after that

its a pretty emotionally charged subject at the best of times :groucho:

[Ellycat]

i hope he or she comes back to. i'm still on my subutex and its tons better than methadone cause when i was on that i was still using herroin on top. i dont get any cravings to use heroin anymore. can anyone give me agent subys e.mail addres so i can write to him please.

:bounce_fl :bounce_fl :bounce_fl :bounce_fl :bounce_fl :bounce_fl

[Raj]

i would if i had it

:bounce_fl:bounce_fl:bounce_fl:bounce_fl:bounce_fl

[Tank Girl]

i hope he or she comes back to. i'm still on my subutex and its tons better than methadone cause when i was on that i was still using herroin on top. i dont get any cravings to use heroin anymore. can anyone give me agent subys e.mail addres so i can write to him please.

:bounce_fl :bounce_fl :bounce_fl :bounce_fl :bounce_fl :bounce_fl

just send him a PM he'll prob pop back and check in some time

[Ellycat]

i understand what your saying raj but i've read them posts and i dont understand what wickedwreckidge is saying to agent suby about how dangrous mixing meth and subutex together. y would anyone want to do that anyway cause the meth dunt work if you do it. and anyway its always dangrous to mix opiates together innit. i think its best if i stay out of it but i hope agent suby comes back cause i've bin reading her posts since my mate told me about her. or is it a man.:groucho:

[Ellycat]

i keep saying him and her cause i dont know wether agent suby or wreckidge are lads or girls. but i've just cheked there profile and now i know. did you know its also really hard to OD on subutex cause of the way it works on your recepter thingys. thats another reason y i like it so much to get off herroin because i've OD before on herroin and meth.. but not anymore cause i wont to get my life back.

:bounce_fl :bounce_g: :bounce_fl :bounce_g:

[Raj]

yeah well thats part of the problem - not only is there misunderstanding of the english but the english he is using isnt getting whatever it was he was trying to say across [i am not 100% clear either and was not on line at the time]

Agent Subby is a guy:wink:

and yes mixing subutex with other opiates is foolhardy especially as it is designed to block their effects :you_crazy:you_crazy:you_crazy but the account at the start of the thread is wicked wreckage's not mine
there is a warning on the packaging telling you not to mix subutex and other opiates and it must be there for a reason:weee:

[Raj]

what was it that made you take the decision to get your life back ellycat?

well done for making that decision and sticking to it by the way - that takes guts
:bounce_fl:bounce_fl:bounce_fl:bounce_fl:bounce_fl :bounce_g::bounce_g::bounce_g::bounce_fl:bounce_fl :bounce_fl

[Ellycat]

yeah innit. thanks for talking to me and i'm going to bed now. i hope we can chat some more on another day. goodnite.
:bounce_fl :bounce_fl :bounce_fl

[Raj]

its a good idea - i might try that:wink:

take care and speak soon:love:

[Ellycat]

what was it that made you take the decision to get your life back ellycat?

well done for making that decision and sticking to it by the way - that takes guts
:bounce_fl:bounce_fl:bounce_fl:bounce_fl:bounce_fl :bounce_g::bounce_g::bounce_g::bounce_fl:bounce_fl :bounce_fl

because i'm sick of the lifestile. never had any money and used to nick money from me mam and dad. i feel dead horrible now and i think they wont talk to me again. i'm lucky tonite cause i'm on my mates computer. but i dont have one myself. maybe i can start saving money now cause i dont spend it on herroin innit. i have to go to bed now cause me mates shouting me. goodnight and thank you and if you speak to agent suby wil you tell him a big up from me. ta.

[Angel]

can anyone give me agent subys e.mail addres so i can write to him please

Ill ask him if its okay..:love:

But ill not promise anything :)

[Agent Subby]

because i'm sick of the lifestile. never had any money and used to nick money from me mam and dad. i feel dead horrible now and i think they wont talk to me again. i'm lucky tonite cause i'm on my mates computer. but i dont have one myself. maybe i can start saving money now cause i dont spend it on herroin innit. i have to go to bed now cause me mates shouting me. goodnight and thank you and if you speak to agent suby wil you tell him a big up from me. ta.

Hey Ellycat my congratulations on your switch over to subutex from methadone. YES you've took the right option mate as you probably know. When you post again on here let me know whether you have a relapse prevention plan in place. In the meantime keep going strong and we're all rooting for you in your quest to be finally free from opiates. Hope to here from you soon. All my love and support. S.:love: :love:

[Raj]

wicked wreckage

de quelle manier votre ami avait use la subutex? avec hypodermic ou par bouche?
et la methodone - de quelle manier?

il a des autres conditions au meme temps? hep C ou aucun chose qui vout connais?

j'ai lit extensivement apres vou m'avais envoyez cette information e j'ai trouve beacoup de chose sur la subutex que je n'ai connait

je vos remerci
raj

[Ellycat]

Hey Ellycat my congratulations on your switch over to subutex from methadone. YES you've took the right option mate as you probably know. When you post again on here let me know whether you have a relapse prevention plan in place. In the meantime keep going strong and we're all rooting for you in your quest to be finally free from opiates. Hope to here from you soon. All my love and support. S.:love: :love:

Thanx agent suby. ive not had any gear now for long time. subbutex is the dogs bollocks innit. i dont know how long to stay on it though. I dont get on with my key worker because hes a perv and keeps chating me up the filth bag. Your posts are really helping me and the info on subutex has been relly good. im typing this in a hurry cause im not supposed to on my mates computer innint. any way thanzx for the support and i'm in court next week si i hope the judge dunt send me down cause i;ll be at square one again. Bin in prison before and i'm sick of the dykes making a play on me. If i do go down would you plaese write to me for support. you can e.mail me if you want to. Nice one agent from your admirer.
Love Zoe.:love: :love: :love:

[Raj]

anything anyone wants to tell us about their subutex experience?

[good or bad - your experiences may help others :groucho:]

[SD]

well ive just made the swap from methadone to sub, ill start another forum anyway...

[Raj]

well ive just made the swap from methadone to sub, ill start another forum anyway...

welcome to partyvibe

:bounce_fl:bounce_fl:bounce_fl:bounce_fl:bounce_fl :bounce_fl

whats your subutex plan?

[mom2be]

I'm quite aware that this thread is fairly old.. but If I hadn't stumbled upon it last week and read and printed out the usage and wean info I'd be in quite a jam..

I've been on Subutex since late January.. this is my 2nd time.. the first time i was on suboxone and loved it. it did great things for me and never did i crave anything..

I'm 8mnths pregnant and 4mnths in I fell back into the pills.. Depression can be an evil thing.. almost as evil as the drugs you take to make yourself not feel it.

So, I'm on Subutex now.. down to .05mgs a day.. because of this article..my Dr who is indedd very nice is also Older and set in his pld school ways. I' went through withdrawels twice on his plan and he told me it was all in my head.. believe me it wasnt.

So, I'm going to do my damdest to wean myself off before this baby girl is born..

I can say that i dont remember the first time being as hard but since my body has changed so much who knows.. i also have been thinking back to getting off it the 1st time and realize i did get sick but no anxiety or pain which is ALL i get now if I stop. And it's on my mind every day.. i cant wait to take it then cant wait for it to kick in.. Of course I have to wait until my mother decides she wants to give it to me.. but I guess the more hours I wait the better off I'll be in the long run.

So tomorrow I go see my OB and see if we can hatch out some sort of plan for this.. since my sub dr has already refused to treat me once..

wich me luck guys

:group_hug

[Raj]

I'm quite aware that this thread is fairly old.. but If I hadn't stumbled upon it last week and read and printed out the usage and wean info I'd be in quite a jam..

I've been on Subutex since late January.. this is my 2nd time.. the first time i was on suboxone and loved it. it did great things for me and never did i crave anything..

I'm 8mnths pregnant and 4mnths in I fell back into the pills.. Depression can be an evil thing.. almost as evil as the drugs you take to make yourself not feel it.

So, I'm on Subutex now.. down to .05mgs a day.. because of this article..my Dr who is indedd very nice is also Older and set in his pld school ways. I' went through withdrawels twice on his plan and he told me it was all in my head.. believe me it wasnt.

So, I'm going to do my damdest to wean myself off before this baby girl is born..

I can say that i dont remember the first time being as hard but since my body has changed so much who knows.. i also have been thinking back to getting off it the 1st time and realize i did get sick but no anxiety or pain which is ALL i get now if I stop. And it's on my mind every day.. i cant wait to take it then cant wait for it to kick in.. Of course I have to wait until my mother decides she wants to give it to me.. but I guess the more hours I wait the better off I'll be in the long run.

So tomorrow I go see my OB and see if we can hatch out some sort of plan for this.. since my sub dr has already refused to treat me once..

wich me luck guys

:group_hug


:group_hug:group_hug:group_hug:group_hug:group_hug

Good luck :flowers:

[Tank Girl]

I'm quite aware that this thread is fairly old.. but If I hadn't stumbled upon it last week and read and printed out the usage and wean info I'd be in quite a jam..

I've been on Subutex since late January.. this is my 2nd time.. the first time i was on suboxone and loved it. it did great things for me and never did i crave anything..

I'm 8mnths pregnant and 4mnths in I fell back into the pills.. Depression can be an evil thing.. almost as evil as the drugs you take to make yourself not feel it.

So, I'm on Subutex now.. down to .05mgs a day.. because of this article..my Dr who is indedd very nice is also Older and set in his pld school ways. I' went through withdrawels twice on his plan and he told me it was all in my head.. believe me it wasnt.

So, I'm going to do my damdest to wean myself off before this baby girl is born..

I can say that i dont remember the first time being as hard but since my body has changed so much who knows.. i also have been thinking back to getting off it the 1st time and realize i did get sick but no anxiety or pain which is ALL i get now if I stop. And it's on my mind every day.. i cant wait to take it then cant wait for it to kick in.. Of course I have to wait until my mother decides she wants to give it to me.. but I guess the more hours I wait the better off I'll be in the long run.

So tomorrow I go see my OB and see if we can hatch out some sort of plan for this.. since my sub dr has already refused to treat me once..

wich me luck guys

:group_hug

I'm sure you are already aware, but please be careful if your planning on reducing whilst pregnant as withdrawals may induce premature labour,
and only do it in conjunction with strict supervision with your team.
most places will only reduce whilst pregnant in an inpatient facility, so that you have 24 hour cover.
Alternativley it may be worth just keeping yourself safe and doing it after the birth...

what ever you decide all the best for you and your future :group_hug

[mom2be]

I'm aware that the withdrawels can cause pre-mature labor, although my subutex DR doesnt seem to think it will be a prob.. the prob is with my OB dr who knows nothing about the drug.. my biggest problem is the anxiety..and again my dr's neither one of them will prescribe me anything while I'm tapering off.. which in my mind would be better for both me and the baby if there was nothing in our systems when she were born..
my Ob dr prescribed me paxil which i refuse to take and will not take as long as "m preg or breast feeding..
I dont see the harm in being able to have a 10 day supply of anti anxiety medicine while I get off the subutex..
I'm lucky ANYONE will help me
it really is beginning to upset me.. because everyone thinks they know whats best for me.. when Im ME not them

thanks for the love guys... I dont have a very good support team

[Raj]

We are here if you need us - its tough enough without feeling all alone

:group_hug:group_hug:group_hug:group_hug

And you are right too - they are not you and at the end of the day the final decision for what is best for you is yours not theirs

:group_hug:group_hug:group_hug:group_hug

[mom2be]

We are here if you need us - its tough enough without feeling all alone

:group_hug:group_hug:group_hug:group_hug

And you are right too - they are not you and at the end of the day the final decision for what is best for you is yours not theirs

:group_hug:group_hug:group_hug:group_hug I wish that were true, but its not.. since i"m not a DR. and I cant find one to give me the xanax. it's really not fair at all.. i even went to a methadone clinic and they refused me treatment because of the subutex.. Its funny how when your NOT pregnant you can get whatever you want out of them.. when I didnt want or need it, and now it's impossible.. I have to find it some other way now. which is unfair

[Raj]

chamomile tea? or another safe herbal tea :wink:

try to concentrate on the positive and not get hung up on the negative shit - its not good for you :wink:

[OKAYTEMIZ]

Subutex is now huge in especially Finland and France, for different reasons, also in Estonia there are Subutex users but because of the price most substitute users are taking Methadone...

In finland the scene in the 90s turned slowly but shurely from the dance-cannabis-acid-mdma crowd, to more and more toward the 'traditional' way, of people starting to chill out with H...

And when the market got driven by youngish ravers, who werent after the price so much, the whole scene suddenly was floooded with cheap heroin from Russia, and it was pure and cheap (one guy who I purchased my 'hooker' from, was busted and they measured his smak at 80% !!!

Normal brown is 20% usually, and that can kill somebody with no tolerance really easy especially if they have drunk...

Anyway, a certain 'doctor' who started to treat the new wave of heroin addicts, and it was getting bad, in the later 90s there was a new wave of hiv infections from needles, as hiv had previously been so marginal that people just didnt care or couldnt belive that it would be in that needle that their best friend just shot up with...

So, this doctor, who lost his licences and was finally put into prison, at first seemed like a messias for the now thousands of heroin addicts as he got people to get Subutex from France where it was the new preferred drug for heroin substitucion, aside of the age old methadone...

And people took to it, at the same time, arround the millenium, the quality of heroin started to go down fast, and after 9.11 it started to dissappear, the last summer I got good stuff was 2002.

And after that I was a complete Subutex user, unfortunately, I wasnt treated in a Finnish state drug hospital or some such, It was basically coming from a quack-dealer, and it was very fast found out that by adding water, and carefully using half a cigarrette filter, one could filter it, and inject.

These people got into very high loads of buprenorphine, and nowadays, as the queue is still minimun one to two years to get the goverments substitute treatement in Finland, people go to Estonia's officilal substitute treatment, where you are in a hospital for three to seven days under surveillance and then you get prescriptions of either subutex or methadone, the ammount is the same for all and depending on how deep the person is into the dosage ect it lasts from one week to one month...

It is a great sin that the Finnish goverment has only made it more difficult for people getting substitute treatment, and now some of the younger people coming to estonia are about 20 year olds, who started with shooting up subutex/puprenorphine circa three years ago!!! :hopeless:

So, I for one, who got hooked in 98 with real heroin, just weep at the cituation, of a supposedly really good living conditions holding Finland, which has one of the most brutal heroin treatments in the world! And I have got treatment in Thailand (methadone), France (subutex and methadone), Russia (narco-treatment 'putting you under anasthesia). Spain (Methadone), Britain (Methadone), Finland (nothing! Waited for a year and went to Estonia), may I add that the longest waiting period was in Finland (one year and still waiting), and the other countries veried from instant to one month...

So, the next time you hear things about the scandinavian social state, just belive me, that Finland is one great liar to the other countries about it's institutions... I created what the doctors called a 'normal worrying heroin problem' into a pending 'subutex nighmare' as the artery's get really hard from shooting up pills, the subutex shooting generation, will have heart attacks with a very high probability in the next 25 years, even if they do get through the cold turkey, where as heroin addicts could get into a normal life and expect to live to old age if they beat the monkey...

Just ask any Finnish subutex shooter if their vains have vanished... They do! And not just like a speedfreaks or smakheads, I mean they just are destroyed!:yakk:


p.s. nowadays, I am not in any contact with the old shootup crowd, I go to estonia, and swallow two to three pills a day, and live a norlmal life. I know I must get off the meth soon, but cannot right now for reasons I would rahter keep to myself, nothing to do with cowardice, I just need to appear normal in the summer...