Getting illegal parties legalised?

[elraveon]

I am NOT hijacking your thread, you are wrong fundmentaly and confused if I may say so, you are also bad mannered and I encounter your nasty personal attacks often when I try to make a point on whatever thread. Its strange to think that people that know us both thought we could get on, I understand why actually but until you get a reality check that’s not going to happen.

“the essential arguement here between us is "what is a free party?" you appear to believe that if we follow the law, the party is still free. i do not. by appearing to hold private parties, you are excluding members of society that would benefit from such an event.”

are you saying you want free parties, open to all with no restrictions because that’s just not possible. At the moment for all intents and purposes that’s what we have except we mustn’t be seen to bring it into the public realm. That’s the way it has always been I have also been trying to explain to you why it is impossible but tbh I don’t think you have really tried to understand what I have wrote and your personal dislike for me is clouding your view.

“i got annoyed with you post and deleted it. it was not trying to stifle free speech,.”
“i started this conversation, so beleive i have a right to control where it goes.”

I have kept to the subject, that’s stifling free speech in my book ;)

At the moment Free(rave) parties are legal as long as they are not done for the public. Remember we are all members of the public and no one is excluded from coming, we can use private means such as word of mouth. And the public can find places like this and join our groups, we just can’t advertise events publicly or say its public to the authorities. Raves done for the public in a public manner are legal as long as you have a license and that’s NOT going to change. I cannot understand why you cannot grasp this.
I am however willing to debate this.

Getting currently illegal free parties legalised?

currently free parties are not illegal. A unlicensed party or a licensed party becomes illegal when it breaks the law or a senior officer decides that he should use the Public Order Act.

[elraveon]

Getting currently illegal free parties legalised?

currently free parties are not illegal. A unlicensed party or a licensed party becomes illegal when it breaks the law or a senior officer decides that he should use the Public Order Act.

Have you not wondered why every rig that goes out to a freeparty doesn't get summonsed every time, if freeparties are illegal.
oh yeah you want to be able to invite the general public, you can you need a license, so I still think you need to change what you are trying to get because the wording does not make sense. neither does your attitude.

So which part of the law do you want changed.
Do you want to be able to invite the public without having a license or to have a license that says you can have a freeparty without the restrictions and cost everyone else has to have.

[USE]

Originally posted by elraveon

are you saying you want free parties, open to all with no restrictions because that’s just not possible.

i think this is the crux of our disagreement. everything is possible. to me you sound like the sort of person, who would have said 70 years ago, that it isnt possible for blacks to have equal rights. have some faith, otherwise nothing will change.

[elraveon]

Originally Posted by elraveon ... are you saying you want free parties, open to all with no restrictions because that’s just not possible.

Originally Posted by Use ... i think this is the crux of our disagreement. everything is possible.

how would that be possible to have no restrictions, in what reality :) your just talking plain nonsense, there’s no other way to put it.

Originally Posted by Use ... to me you sound like the sort of person, who would have said 70 years ago, that it isnt possible for blacks to have equal rights. have some faith, otherwise nothing will change.

your not very nice are you and bordering on very nasty which is only shadowed by your pre-conception and pre-judgment. If YOU had read half and had tried to understand a quarter of what I say, YOU would see I think all human beings should have equal rights and it is possible but black, white or yellow they don’t have equal rights, not here or anywhere that I know of. And it’s unlikely I would make any difference between colour or race ffs. I don’t think we have equal rights NOW that’s all I go on about and why I have such a dislike of the aristocracy and the class system. And while YOU and others are in denial of the class system and its discriminatory ways akin to racism and while you have your head in a bucket its unlikely Britain or the world for that matter will have equal rights, and while we have this inequality and acceptance of class, its not possible to expect many people to act with humanity or behave with respect to others or their surroundings. We don’t have equal rights now black or white, its why we cant have freeparties now the way you want or though its to subtle for you too grasp, all you can see is me objecting, where is I want the same as you but there is only so much that is possible while we have a class system and age old inequalities in place. So…………………DON’T TELL ME TO HAVE FAITH, wake up yourself! And look around; Open your eyes and mind, instead of making insidious remarks because you don’t know what you are talking about.

Tbh I would expect this kind of nastiness that emanates from your replies to me from the other place but from a moderator on here, I must say I am surprised and incredulous at the venom in your remarks, the lack of understanding, judgmental personal comments and censorship that I have received from YOU since I was asked to make comments on this forum several months ago.

[USE]

first off, let me appologise absolutely for deleting your post. it was a supperssion of freespeech, and completely unacceptable. let me also appologise for making you feel victimised and unwlecome here, it has been my problems concerning my huge ego which have prevented me addressing the points which you raised. i am thouroughly ashamed of how i have behaved, and i have no excuse. i am really sorry for the way this thread has turned out, and my part in creating the climate of petty bickering and sniping that has occcured. the only temperence i give to my appology is that the conflict has not been a one way street.

Originally posted by elraveon

If YOU had read half and had tried to understand a quarter of what I say, YOU would see I think all human beings should have equal rights and it is possible but black, white or yellow they don’t have equal rights, not here or anywhere that I know of.

i was not claiming that you would agree with such a system of discrimination, merely that you would not beleive that such a change in society is possible. im sorry you ttok what i said as an accusation of recism, that was not my intention.

And it’s unlikely I would make any difference between colour or race ffs. I don’t think we have equal rights NOW that’s all I go on about and why I have such a dislike of the aristocracy and the class system. And while YOU and others are in denial of the class system

i do not perceive myself to be indenial of the class system and i am at a loss as to ascertain where you formulated this veiw. however, it has become clear to me that i have communicated my ideas in this thread less than effectively, so do not place the blame for this understanding at your door.

i agree that unliscenced public freeparty/raves which i have been organisingfor some years are highly unlikely to ever be tolerated or legalised. the motive for starting this thread is that i beleive that while this is unlikely (and in your veiw impossible) it is possible. by changing the way a lot of the less agreeable events of this nature are conducted, and the way society veiws said events by the manipulation of the media to express the sofar unrepresented positive aspects of the events.

this thread was a debate started and subsequently stifled by myself. i obviously was not ready to hear the full spectrum of opinions on teh subject, adn it is my own failing. all i really wanted was for people to help me come up with furthur strategies to realise my own desires (however impossible in your opinion). teh title was misleading, but i was not deliberately misleading others, i was in self denial.

i hope, despite the snide comments i have made, that we can find some common ground on which we can base a more respectful dialogue. i do not expect to ever agree withyou on this issue, i think both our veiws are too entrenched. all i ask is that you look to yourself to aid this process as i alone am not capable. thank you for sticking around for the sake of the debate despite the difficulties that have ben in your way. i hope we now understand each other a litte better.

[elraveon]

Originally posted by USE

first off, let me appologise absolutely for deleting your post. it was a supperssion of freespeech, and completely unacceptable. let me also appologise for making you feel victimised and unwlecome here, it has been my problems concerning my huge ego which have prevented me addressing the points which you raised. i am thouroughly ashamed of how i have behaved, and i have no excuse. i am really sorry for the way this thread has turned out, and my part in creating the climate of petty bickering and sniping that has occcured. the only temperence i give to my appology is that the conflict has not been a one way street.

your appology is accepted and I wish you didn’t misunderstand me because you do I think from your replies, or you could understand what I cant say on here. still maybe there is hope.

this thread was a debate started and subsequently stifled by myself. i obviously was not ready to hear the full spectrum of opinions on teh subject, adn it is my own failing. all i really wanted was for people to help me come up with furthur strategies to realise my own desires (however impossible in your opinion). teh title was misleading, but i was not deliberately misleading others, i was in self denial.

I understand what you are saying and of course what ever I say is just my opinion but there are goals that we can reach and I would like to make a contribution to your debate and I will try to be more constructive but we have to get past this title which is wrong maybe I could suggest something along the lines of "how can we stop freeparties from becoming illegal" or "how can we make freeparties more acceptable" or "how we can get freeparty legal sites" I don’t think sites would work how you would want but anyway that’s up to you, I wouldn’t disagree however with the title ;)

i hope, despite the snide comments i have made, that we can find some common ground on which we can base a more respectful dialogue. i do not expect to ever agree with you on this issue, i think both our views are too entrenched. all i ask is that you look to yourself to aid this process as i alone am not capable. thank you for sticking around for the sake of the debate despite the difficulties that have ben in your way. i hope we now understand each other a litte better.

cool well said tbh I wouldnt of bothered if I didnt care. I would like to say more now but I have had a long day and you have made the last few days a bit hard I have some adventuring to do tommorow so I need a break now, so when I get back lets see where we can get.
:)

[USE]

sound, i think i will have a think and try and formulate a better thread for the discussion of these issues, as i think this one is a bit battered now by our conflict. tahnks for taking the time, and i have been feeling pretty battered by this issue as well, so i totally relate to having o take a break.

heres to our dialogue becoming more constructive.

[Raj]

Gooood flamewar you two Such as you don't often see nowadays. Properly vituperous, quite personal at times, and even with bold faced shouting. Always entertaining when pragmatism and idealism mis-understand each other (for people on the sidelines who can see the sense in both arguments - being in amongst it is not usually terribly entertaining. On the plus side, you both got to let off some serious steam, and a good growl can be quite a catharsis), Nice to see you made up too - not a common result of a flamewar usually...


..................Is it done yet................

And would this be a good time to post a link to

http://www.albion.com/netiquette/

Remember - to paraphrase Mr Miyagi....FLAME ON..........FLAME OFF.

So's everybody knows where they stand.
Possibly a new smiley or two could be found to suit the purpose......or


Anyhow. On the original subject (or at least, I think it is the original subject), I think the way to stay clear of the long arm of the law is to make parties private, but do what organisers have always done, and use word of mouth to spread the word.

The whole advertising/flyers nonsense is a holdover from clubs anyway - When I started partying, we didn't get flyers or whatnot - we just knew someone who knew someone who had the partyline number, and would ring it at the weekend to find out where and when...

And making it a private party (and doing it on private land) means when the old bill turn up you can refuse to let them in without a warrant...:-) Which is usually quite satisfying (just make sure they have no complaints from the neighbours to use to shut you down first.)

The idealist in me swears fluently about having to jump through the hoops, but the pragmatist says that that is what will have to happen until I'm rich enough to afford a kamikaze rig for each time I want to party.

...:bounce _m:......: bounce_m:

Roll on the commando rave rig....

[USE]

new word of the day:

Vituperrious
\Vi`tu*per"ri*ous\, a. Worthy of vituperation; shameful; disgraceful. [Obs.]

you live and learn, eh?

[Raj]

[elraveon]

Anyhow. On the original subject (or at least, I think it is the original subject), I think the way to stay clear of the long arm of the law is to make parties private, but do what organisers have always done, and use word of mouth to spread the word.

The whole advertising/flyers nonsense is a holdover from clubs anyway - When I started partying, we didn't get flyers or whatnot - we just knew someone who knew someone who had the partyline number, and would ring it at the weekend to find out where and when...

And making it a private party (and doing it on private land) means when the old bill turn up you can refuse to let them in without a warrant...:-) Which is usually quite satisfying (just make sure they have no complaints from the neighbours to use to shut you down first.)

The idealist in me swears fluently about having to jump through the hoops, but the pragmatist says that that is what will have to happen until I'm rich enough to afford a kamikaze rig for each time I want to party.

Hi Rajsuspect :) to be clear and it may not be what you mean but I don’t think it’s a question of making parties private, it has always been that way, some people may have been putting on parties for the public or at least advertising it in places where the public had access, but I am certain if the police or the authorities thought they could pin the organizing or the person would openly admit this charge they would prosecute and they have.
However things have now changed and they don’t need to look for organizers of unlicensed public parties which was alway difficute, now rigs equipment and dj’s are all liable and the only defense is that it is private

If anyone organizes a party and charges entrance(not donation), or if they put out flyers, or if they advertise in the public domain or if they sell booze or if they admit that it is done for the (general)public then everyone at that party who has a rig, records lights or gennys are automatically liable. The only thing that has changed is now they don’t have to find the organizer, equipment owners will do.

I think its possible to argue that you can have a private party in a public place or though of course with permission on private land is much better The OB can get a warrant or a sec 63 even easier and they have other powers that they can use, so the same rules and conditions that make a good freeparty venue apply whether its on public or private land.

I hate having to jump through the hoops too and its possible to step sideways sometimes if you understand the game

[globalloon]

since becoming a dad i've put event organising on pause.. at least free parties (still make whatever input i can for a couple of local community festivals)

the boundaries have shifted since I was directly involved and it seems to me that throwing a party on public land is a much more risky business (as elraveon said; djs / equipment owners are all now liable)

the class issue is complex; we live in a time when those in power claim there is no class system. this is clearly bullshit and the more people that believe it, the more power the class system has over us

but i think the class system is only one of the hurdles... democracy only serves the majority and we live in a time when you could barely squeeze a penny between any of the main three political choices. so who will stand up for the 'fringe'?

work needs to be done to alter the perception of many groups that are seen as being on the fringe... this includes the mclibel pair (who stood up not only to one of the largest multi natonal corporations in the world, but also the entire british judicial system), charities that campign for a coherent penal strategy for the UK, and ravers

perceptions can be altered, but it takes a lot of self-regulation. one party that leaves human shit and smashes up a building will attract more attention than 100 that pass off peacefully

due to the risk involved in throwing a party, it's not surprising that people aren't ready to report widely on the success of their party (large number of people in a confined space, no violence, no crime) and compare it to any city centregroup of saturday night drinkers / fighters / pukers / sexual assaults etc). the early days of rave saw interviews with chief constables who had attended raves and were simply stunned by the lack of crime. the other problem we face is the media. websites like this could be a step towards changing perceptions... but quite simply it's a drop in the ocean

one thing we can do is stand up to oppression collectively, but the last time that happened was in response to the poll tax. ie. it was costing people.

perhaps a rave strike would get a few more heads on board. stand with us, or we will all fall.

i'm dreaming now though

[Raj]

Originally posted by globalloon

djs / equipment owners are all now liable)

would liabilty be reduced by having a formal hire contract for the equipment ie the equipment on site being on hire from a company or individual?

[General Lighting]

Originally posted by rajsuspect

would liabilty be reduced by having a formal hire contract for the equipment ie the equipment on site being on hire from a company or individual?

not any more...

cops now work with a CPS lawyer so they use both their power of physical force etc to retake the territory and legal means to try and justify the actions by their interpretation of the law. they are also making better use of electronic evidence gathering (using timecoded video and photographs) to prove that the equipment in question and the people using it were present at the unlicensed gathering.

even without using the CJA powers which specifically relate to sound equipment, under PACE 1984 (police and criminal evidence act) any constable can legally seize any property being used to commit a crime provided they can justify in Court that the property was being used to commit a crime. it doesn't matter who legally owns it until the cops decide whether to return it.

If they use PEL laws it can be argued that just being involved in organising the event is crime in itself, so the cops are justified in seizing property to prevent the event going on.

Often drugs charges or (in indoor buildings) abstracting (stealing) electricity are added to the list of charges so cops can also argue that none of this would have happened if the rave was not in that location so the property is part and parcel to the crime being committed.

there is no habeas corpus law for property (a law against people being unjustly detained) so cops can get away with storing it for as long as they like to keep it out of use. this is clearly being done with some of the crews in the Thames Valley who had stuff confiscated back in 2004 and may not have had it returned yet.

also by confiscating property usually an owner comes forward to claim it and has to prove ownership; so the cops have someone to hold accountable for the rave...

it would be a civil matter between the owner of the property and the Police Authority to claim that the loss of the property was causing them financial hardship (i.e by not being able to put on events).

The owner of the property can either be nicked as well for being involved in the event or worse still could be subject to a counterclaim in the civil courts for financial losses caused to the venue owner by damage/trespass.

Some forces pass on the details of the organiser to venue owners solicitors, this has happened to someone I know and he has had private detectives trying to locate him and his assets to recover costs through civil courts.

the "hire company" it was a trick which sometimes worked 10 years ago when cops didn't know the law as well, had less resources and there was less of a backlash against raves.

Times change though - nowadays cops would take the kit anyway and if the hire company boss whinged they would say "why are you hiring kit to illegal raves?" and would be either asked to turn in the organisers as a "bargain" to get the kit; or perhaps even be investigated themselves.

[Raj]

maybe this is the way forward?

http://www.theinquirer.net/?article=28671

what do you all think?

[Dr Bunsen]

Originally posted by rajsuspect

maybe this is the way forward?

http://www.theinquirer.net/?article=28671

what do you all think?

I could just see Use and Elvaron as MPs now you mention it...

[Raj]

Originally posted by Site

I could just see Use and Elvaron as MPs now you mention it...

at least they would be more honest about what they doing .....

[Dr Bunsen]

[USE]

Originally posted by Site

I could just see Use and Elvaron as MPs now you mention it...

dont encourage me...well actually do..maybe in a few years.

yea, be afraid.

[Dr Bunsen]

Here's to the people's party of freeparty!

[elraveon]

Originally Posted by Site
I could just see Use and Elvaron as MPs now you mention it...

not a chance in hell. I would either have to be a liar or a fool to put it mildly.

[Dr Bunsen]

Originally posted by elraveon

not a chance in hell. I would either have to be a liar or a fool to put it mildly.

Buy me a pint sometime and I'll tell you my rant about the subjective nature of human kind...

[elraveon]

Originally posted by Site

Buy me a pint sometime and I'll tell you my rant about the subjective nature of human kind...

its a deal :) I dont drink booze tho so you might have trouble getting me into a pub ;)

[Raj]

well if we cant win head on we should infiltrate and take over

he he he

what could we call the party?

Monster Raving Party Party?

The Party for House in the House?

any ideas?

[General Lighting]

the Young Conservatives?

it actually happened

thats who the 1989 "Freedom To Party" movement actually were

I'm not joking either, they made a (surprisingly good) case for permitting raves as an example of minimal regulation and the free market. The movement was a bizzare mixture of tory yuppies, ravers and loadsamoney essex boy types who loved thatcho but necked a few pills on weekends (you had to be loadsamoney then when they cost £15-20 a time)

they went full on for the publicity, debates, always got on telly etc ... but of course the Old Guard slapped them down big time - ISTR they had a few talks with them but refused to accept change by direct action -
and then suddenly a load of acid house party promoters got grassed up for dealing and got banged up