Hollywood versus the UK

[Dasein]

So not too long ago, I watched a movie called Green Street Hooligans. It's about what are, at least in the movie, called 'football firms.' The firms are tightly knit groups of guys who drink and go to ball games together and then after the pub, after the games, at night, or seemingly whenever, actively beat the living shit out of each other endlessly and without warning, public or not, creating havoc everywhere they go. They even burn down a pub at one point.

So I'm wondering, having until recently not had the opportunity to talk to younger people from the UK, if there's any veracity to this movie's position.
1. Is there such a thing as firms?
2. Are they really as crazy as they're depicted in this movie (which you may or may not have seen, but trust me, in the movie, they're pretty aggressively crazy)
3. Does the violence bleed out of that world onto people who aren't in firms?
4. Is Hollywood just totally full of shit?

Discuss.

[Angel]

I saw a British "movie" a bit like it not long ago

It's called "Rise of the footsoldier" it's about football and drugs





It's a bit like the movie you describe here,but it's a true movie

Scared the hell out of me

[Dasein]

That's pretty awful...I forget what the sec. count was, but there was a still of a guy with half of his face off...And it's a true story. That's some bad ju-ju...

[General Lighting]

Originally posted by Dasein

So I'm wondering, having until recently not had the opportunity to talk to younger people from the UK, if there's any veracity to this movie's position.
1. Is there such a thing as firms?

yes. its been like this in the UK since football (soccer) was invented. Originally it was a game between all the men of two rival villages, and used to settle scores, there would be murders and peoples property being trashed. Medieval kings actually banned football on a number of occasions!

2. Are they really as crazy as they're depicted in this movie (which you may or may not have seen, but trust me, in the movie, they're pretty aggressively crazy)

yes, but the more extreme incidents have been calmed down a lot due to intense policing of football matches (hundreds of cops and CCTV surveillance everywhere). many of these movies portray incidents or timescales in the 1980s and 1990s before CCTV and surveillance became that effective.

remember also that in Britain we aren't allowed handguns, and rifles/shotguns are hard to conceal and not that easy to get (nor is ammunition unless you have a license).

This means that there is more close hand to hand combat, and where someone feels they cannot overpower their opponent by their body alone these days they will have no problem about using a weapon of some sort, also today people often fighting to maim or kill rather than shake hands afterwards. Don't believe any crap you may hear about "Queensbury rules" or a "fair fight". Britain ain't like that no more.

3. Does the violence bleed out of that world onto people who aren't in firms?

sometimes. Ethnic minorities and their businesses are occasionally targeted by white dominated gangs/firms, and pubs (bars) although the bulk of it is concentrated within the football crowds.

however images, movies and stories from peers have encouraged young men to accept violence as a way of achieving their ends (it doesn't help though that our leaders in both our countries are trying to fight and bully the Middle East out of its oil!).

There is a very bleak outlook and mindset of a lot of young males, compared to when I was a teen in the 80s/90s there is a resurgence in them thinking that racism, violence against women and being constantly angry and up for a fight with anyone is in fact OK, even amongst ravers what used to be a lot more "fluffy" and happy.

There is now a similar youth gang culture in cities to that of the USA, and a trend that if a older man challenges a bunch of youths even if they are blatantly doing something wrong they are prepared to kill him! All this despite the fact our criminal justice system isn't as liberal as many think, and when caught (as mentioned CCTV and forensic science is very advanced in the UK) they will often do long stretches of prison time.
I expect this will only get worse due to the credit crunch and worries amongst all men about their position in life...

4. Is Hollywood just totally full of shit?

I've always noticed portrayal of firearms and violence in hollywood movies is IMO completely unrealistic (ditto the use of technology), ironic when your country allows people to routinely keep and use guns!

However British films used to be grittier but they are following the negative influecnes of hollywood (overdone lighting, glamourising crime and violence more)

[GiantMidget]

Some of my mates are in a football 'firm' and yeah they're fucking insane, I find it to be a bit sad really but each to they're own i suppose. That film has alot of truths in it tbh.

[process]

i think ive seen that film its just called green st over here. hasnt it got elijah wood in it? His brother in the film has to do the shittest and most comedy cockny accent i think ive ever heard. the actors english as well. proper wierd. pretty much everything he said had me in stitches! thought it was an english film as well? total shit. Rise of the foot soldier is a quality film tho.

[General Lighting]

Originally posted by djprocess

Rise of the foot soldier is a quality film tho.

unsurprisingly though it reopens a lot of old wounds amongst the locals here, when it opened in 2007 - many people in Essex and Suffolk , cops and civillians alike haven't and probably will never forgive and forget what happened in the 90s, as the "fluffy" rave scene led to a wave of violence stretching from London all the way up to here in Ipswich, everyones taken sides so some of these conflicts remain unresolved.

[Tank Girl]

I've spoken to quite a few (ex) firm members (from the 80's - 90's) and if what they say is true - it was like the film rise of the foot soldier,
and extremely violent times, as far as I'm aware - what GL says with better police intellegence etc it has calmed down alot but in my mind it wasnt / isnt to do with the football game it was / is angry young / middle aged men using it as an excuse to beat seven shades of shit out of each other,

Around 14 - 15 years ago my sisters (now ex) got his face slashed on her doorstep
A chelsea smile - so named after footie hoolaganism slashings that were common with a stanley knife to the face (tried to find a picture but can't for those who dont know the term - like the joker in Batman)

he was a chelsea boy but this was more personal and ended up with hugley violent things happening ('gangland' style) and we live in suburbia !!
there was alot of rivalry between 2 large housing estates where we live and lots of boys being 'gangsters', and rival families 'sorting their business', this however has been going on since my parents were young here, and I'm sure is still continuing to this day - and is just another example of angry people resorting to violence and using any excuse they can to do it....

[General Lighting]

Originally posted by Tank Girl

I've spoken to quite a few (ex) firm members (from the 80's - 90's) and if what they say is true - it was like the film rise of the foot soldier,
and extremely violent times, as far as I'm aware - what GL says with better police intellegence etc it has calmed down alot but in my mind it wasnt / isnt to do with the football game it was / is angry young / middle aged men using it as an excuse to beat seven shades of shit out of each other,

actually they busted a load of footy hooligans in town a few months back. The youngest was about 40 and the oldest in his late 50s or early 60s...

but what has happened now is because its actually quite hard to fight at a football match due to cops or even break town windows due to CCTV everywhere (although pubs enroute are still often trashed) the anger is spilling out across all generations and is rife in any "London overspill" area (and even Ipswich,being only 1hr 30mins away from East London is affected by this)

[Dasein]

It's much easier for me to conceive of this behavior occurring in kids, as Tank Girl describes, but to think of it happening among 40+ adults strikes me as being just crazy. Young people, teens/late teens, have such a drive for identity and have so much angst typically because of this process of the emerging self that it expresses itself violently kind of a lot.

In adults, though, I'm afraid I would have to chock it up to pure human fuckery. If you're 40 and acting in a way that could only be justified if you're an ignorant child, that's nothing but shameful. I find it absolutely shocking that it's actually happened that way.

The Chelsea Grin I've heard about - that actually comes up in the movie. I wonder how many cases of that have actually happened and if the one in the movie was inspired by the one described here.

It's pretty astonishing stuff. This kind of personal violence is basically unheard of here. Our violence consists typically - the violence that is reported to the police or in the media, say - is generally impersonal, a result of drive-by shootings, say. Almost always with guns. When people fight here, fights are brief and seem to be over before anyone gets hurt to this extent, though occasionally things like curbies* are heard of, but they're generally regarded as being so rare and so shocking that they almost enter the realm of urban legend.


*forcing a fallen combatant to open his mouth over a curb, top jaw/top curb, lower jaw/vertical part of the curb. A kick the back of the head...you can imagine the rest.

Just to give an idea how rare this is, I saw it happen once in a movie and I have seen a lot of movies, and heard about it happening once here in Reno about 13 years ago, but the occurrence is unverified.

[quietRIOT]

Originally posted by Dasein

So not too long ago, I watched a movie called Green Street Hooligans. It's about what are, at least in the movie, called 'football firms.' The firms are tightly knit groups of guys who drink and go to ball games together and then after the pub, after the games, at night, or seemingly whenever, actively beat the living shit out of each other endlessly and without warning, public or not, creating havoc everywhere they go. They even burn down a pub at one point.

So I'm wondering, having until recently not had the opportunity to talk to younger people from the UK, if there's any veracity to this movie's position.
1. Is there such a thing as firms?
2. Are they really as crazy as they're depicted in this movie (which you may or may not have seen, but trust me, in the movie, they're pretty aggressively crazy)
3. Does the violence bleed out of that world onto people who aren't in firms?
4. Is Hollywood just totally full of shit?

Discuss.

4. Is Hollywood just totally full of shit?


Yes.i think the discovery of ecstacy had a lot to do with the lack of football hooliganism around today in the uk...there are so called firms..
Arseholes basically obsessed with football who drink an love acting hard. who spoil it for people who want to take their kids to a game...
we dont hear of football hooligans now ..its all about teenager gang warfare over turf. involving kids being stabbed to death for nothing..thats the big fear here...
i think you may have been reading too many comics...lol

[fruitisbad]

nothing wrong with a pint and a fight

[Dom_sufc]

Originally posted by quietRIOT

we dont hear of football hooligans now ..its all about teenager gang warfare over turf. involving kids being stabbed to death for nothing..thats the big fear here...
i think you may have been reading too many comics...lol

Hmm Im not too sure about that. I know a bloke from the OCS, sheff wednesday firm (well ex now he got smashed over the head several times with a baseball bat in a bar lock in fight, and now has seizures) and a one from the BBC too, sheff united firm. Ive seen recent DvDs and heard stories, so I know for a fact its still going on. Same here in Lincoln with a bloke I know too.

I dont condone It obviously, just happen to know the people that's all. They're not exactly my best mates.

[Tank Girl]

Originally posted by Dasein

It's much easier for me to conceive of this behavior occurring in kids, as Tank Girl describes, but to think of it happening among 40+ adults strikes me as being just crazy. Young people, teens/late teens, have such a drive for identity and have so much angst typically because of this process of the emerging self that it expresses itself violently kind of a lot.

the lads I was refering to were in their late 20's early 30's so not what I'd call youngsters, but violence to them was normal, it was usual to see someone bottled or fighting on a night out

people with these extreme violent behaviours - by the time they are in their 40's usually are either dead, in prison or probation (which may or maynot curb their behaviour when actual consequences are put in to place)
or leave the more 'organised crime' aspect and resort to battering their wives and kids, and continue to be violent (maybe less physically due to their age but still emotionally and verbally)
in a few cases they actually deal with themselves and the root cause of their anger and some just 'burn out'

football holliganism isnt about footbal, it is about power and making yourself feel better by taking it out on someone else, and often spills out in to the wider community like domestic violence, petty fights down the pub etc

not excusing this behaviour (at all) - these people often have very low self esteem usually are themselves damaged and therefore act the 'big man' and have this as a front, therefore taking the 'easy option' by carrying this on rather than facing the fact that they need to do some work to change- then their kids grow up in this atmosphere whitnessing this behaviour and it is 'normal' to them and so continues the cycle
some people I have met who have been violent have also used it as a defence mechanism - having a reputaion stops people starting on you etc,
but the down side is you then have to live up to this reputation and it can then make it very difficult to change..

[Dasein]

Originally posted by Tank Girl

their kids grow up in this atmosphere whitnessing this behaviour and it is 'normal' to them and so continues the cycle
\..

The same happens with our neo-nazis and KKK members (as well as with racists in general), here. Stupid, ignorant, indefensible behavior that never does anything but hurt everyone exposed to it and even when the participants reform it's often too late because the kids have picked it up...
It's troubling.

For whatever reason, I'd have never guessed that drugs were involved in firm activity...naive, maybe, but the connection just wasn't there mentally. The way the whole thing is represented here is just that these guys either get worked up over the actual games and riot (which is the only time we ever hear the term 'hooligans' in that sense) or over turf and reputation with football as the excuse or rallying point or however you'd like to phrase it, in the case of firms. And that's definitely the representation in Green Street Hooligans. In fact, it doesn't seem like there's a single drug reference in the movie, though there's plenty of drinking, which made sense. In the film, it's solely about reputation and then naturally, vendetta.